The Alpha Roll

As you may have already guessed, I don't use it, nor would I.  I have owned dogs from many groups, have trained dogs from all the groups, including some rare breeds, and have not had to resort to violent behavior to make a point about leadership.  I know at least one trainer in my area who uses it very inappropriately and witnessed her do it to a four month old puppy for pulling on his leash too hard - ridiculous.  I have seen dogs completely ruined by the use of this technique and would consider myself professionally liable if I were to have this happen to a client's dog.  That said, I think that Cesar's method of gently putting a dog on its side is not the same as an "alpha roll", which has traditionally been done with some modicum of force (again, we primates are so violent).  If he performs the traditional alpha roll, I have not yet seen it on the show, but I don't watch every single episode of his any more than I do of any other show - I have a life outside dogs, too, LOL.  If espencer or anyone else has a link to that behavior, perhaps they can post, so we can evaluate if we think it crosses the line.  However, even putting a dog on its side is a physically aggressive act that does not need to happen if the trainer/behaviorist has the skill to obtain the desired response in another manner.  And, even if that process takes more time, I would certainly prefer to explain the reasoning for it to a client and proceed in a way that will allow me to adhere to the motto "First, do no harm."

Is the alpha role exclusive to CM and is that why it is put in this section?  Twelve years during a fee based training class that used both positive reenforcement and corrections, this was demonostrated to me and when I would use it. I don't know if CM ways was known at that time. 

Secondly (the reason I'm risking life and limb here):  What does he [CM]say about the alpha roll?  Has he ever addressed this issue on his show?  Defended the technique?  Warned people of the potential dangers?  Said something like "A lot of people will tell you this is dangerous and abusive but the truth is blah blah blah"? 

I understand but my experience is not from CM but from a training center that I recently called and said they have not changed their teachings methods since I took the class.  I thought the CM discussion category was to talk about CM ways and for members to gain an understanding.  Your OP seems to invite other training method philosphies.  I don't feel comfortable responding because it may be interpretted as anti CM or pro CM and at this stage I am open and learning by a productive in depth discussions.  I think alpha as a specific technique can be discussed but in a larger content of behavior changes.  I can give you the number of the training center and you talking directly to them and maybe that will confirm your opinion.

As I have said before, though I get some value from CM's philosophy and observational techniques, I don't do everything he does in the order he does it. I do agree that you can teach a dog just about anything. You have to start first with the expectation of what you want. It's just his methods are sometimes physical.
 
I have used the scruff and pin, though I did not learn it from CM but from other sites on Siberians. I think, with some dogs, there are instincts that go beyond operant conditioning. So, with some dogs, a combination is necessary. I don't use it nearly as often as I once did. I started with it early after getting him. It was never about pain. He would lower himself and roll. I taught him the word "no" with it. And that is the most physical I've gotten with him. As always pack dynamics are fluid. I hardly ever stop him from barking with the neighbors' dogs and checking out disturbances. Other times, I will body block. Other times, I will graze his shoulder to nudge him out of the way and I will stand in his spot. Or stand over a spot he was contentious about and claim it as mine. We allow him one section of the flower bed for digging. If he tries to extend it, I will body block it.
 
I use whatever works. I'll even use treats to get his attention on me.[] With a correction or aversion, I will immediately follow up with an obedience command that can be rewarded. I think he's smart enough that he doesn't think that the stopped behavior is being rewarded.

Nope I have never used it, I just don't see how it helps anything.

DPU - I'd like to find out what CM thinks of the alpha roll - he obviously thinks it has value and doesn't appear to view it as dangerous - what has he said about it?  Has he ever defended the technique, as it is so controversial?  Has he ever warned people of potential dangers?

"This area has been created for those who enjoy C.M and wish to discuss his training, the show and methods. "

As this is one of the methods he uses I don't see any harm in other people saying what they think of this technique too.  Just because its not exclusive to CM doesn't mean this is posted in the wrong place.  Very little (if any) of what CM does is completely new or original or exclusive to him anyway - and the same can be said of most trainers I think.

I don't understand why I would need to contact that training centre.... it won't tell me what CM thinks of that technique or what other people here think of it so I don't get where you're coming from.  I also don't get where you're getting "inviting other training philosophies" from.  Sorry if I have worded my OP wrong and confused anyone.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

DPU - I'd like to find out what CM thinks of the alpha roll - he obviously thinks it has value and doesn't appear to view it as dangerous - what has he said about it?  Has he ever defended the technique, as it is so controversial?  Has he ever warned people of potential dangers?

"This area has been created for those who enjoy C.M and wish to discuss his training, the show and methods. "

As this is one of the methods he uses I don't see any harm in other people saying what they think of this technique too.  Just because its not exclusive to CM doesn't mean this is posted in the wrong place.  Very little (if any) of what CM does is completely new or original or exclusive to him anyway - and the same can be said of most trainers I think.

I don't understand why I would need to contact that training centre.... it won't tell me what CM thinks of that technique or what other people here think of it so I don't get where you're coming from.  I also don't get where you're getting "inviting other training philosophies" from.  Sorry if I have worded my OP wrong and confused anyone.

Then I think you should ask him or ask members where to reference it.  I think a more productive dialogue would be to ask only those members that are most knowledgeable and practice CM methods of alpha rolling, it what circumstances would they use and what circumstances they would not use it.  Of course that would be their opinion because they would be interpetting CM's way.  I know that would help me gain a better understanding of the CM way. 

You clearly stated your opinion of alpha rolling in your OP and so I was confused as to what you wanted to gain from the discussion.  In my opinion, to gain understanding you have to open to the possibility of change.  As I stated before, I think this particular technique has to be put in a large behavioral modification situation.  Don't you agree that would be more productive and use to those that want to understand CM's ways? 
 
Added:  A very intelligent person can make the argument that Alpha rolling is similar to hugging a dog.  I am not that person.  You also may want to consider vet clinic techniques for subduing a dog during treatment.  They may not call it alpha rolling.

Then I think you should ask him or ask members where to reference it

 
That's what I'm hoping for yes - failing that an anecdotal account of what they have heard or seen CM do or say on this topic would be OK.
 

I think a more productive dialogue would be to ask only those members that are most knowledgeable and practice CM methods of alpha rolling

 
How on earth am I meant to pick them out?????
 

You clearly stated your opinion of alpha rolling in your OP and so I was confused as to what you wanted to gain from the discussion

 
I like learning about the ways other people do things, even if I choose not to do them myself.  I find it insightful and it can occasionally help me to get a new perspective on things. 
 
Modern thinking is that the only time a dog would forcibly roll another is to kill it - and I can't find anything other authority on the subject to counter this.  I like to get both sides of the coin when drawing my conclusions.  As CM uses it and seems to have some success with it, trying to find out his opinion on it seemed like a good start. 
 
Plus, at the moment I'd run a mile from any trainer who proposed to do this to my dog and advise anyone else to do the same, because so far I have found nothing to counter the claim that it is harmful to the dog.  Might I in future miss out on a really good trainer because I never learned more about the alpha roll?

Sinse these things always seem to turn into heated debates I'll just give my view without disputing others. I ask this in another thread, but, ok, i'll repeat it here. I don't know how many of you work with dogs who are showing aggression, try to bite you, or trying to bite another dog, but I do often. While DPU is correct and I can't give an answer for Cesar, I'll give mine. The goes for the bite, I take hold of them, calmly, but assertively (keeping me and them safe) place them down on their side, use gental but firm pressure, allow them to relax (which they *always* do) then I let them up. What's the benefit? Well the dog isn't now trying to attack me or the other dog. So now please feel free to explain to me, how I'm being abusive. If a parent restains a child who is acting out of control, are they abusing the child? And no kids are not dogs and dogs are not kids, but the analogy fits.

So point out the abuse here please.

I used to use it on Conrad, though I didn't learn it from Cesar but from the original popularizers of this technique, the Monks of  New Skete. Though they have since, the in the new edition of their books, retracted the recomendation to do this. I also used to scruff Conrad and do what DH referred to as a "shake job".
 
And yes, it certainly makes an impression. Lucky for the integrity of my face, Conrad is a naturally submissive dog and never fought back. I was doing this stuff becuase I thought he was "defying" me, but in hindsight it was just that I hadn't trained him very well and he didn't know what I was asking or hadn't had any practice behaving around various distractions.
 
I have since, obviously, knocked it off with this kind of physical stuff.
 
The true "alpha roll" that the Monks originally talked about was actually based on some pretty flawed research on wolves that has since been retracted. Wolves don't roll one another over unless they are about to kill the other wolf. What they do do is roll over voluntarily to demonstrate submission. But the dominant wolf does not physically take them and force them over unless they're about to bite their throat open.

Never used it, never would,  there are to many other means to correcting a dogs behavior.  Especially with an aggessive dog, I would stay clear of an alpha roll.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

The true "alpha roll" that the Monks originally talked about was actually based on some pretty flawed research on wolves that has since been retracted. Wolves don't roll one another over unless they are about to kill the other wolf. What they do do is roll over voluntarily to demonstrate submission. But the dominant wolf does not physically take them and force them over unless they're about to bite their throat open.

Lets expand on that though, shall we. Yes they "voluntarily to demonstrate submission." But they do this for several reasons. One is, they are showing *I'm not a threat*. But the other is, because they are being corrected and if they don't submit the higher ranking dog will attack and possibly kill them. Notice how the higher ranking dog will stand stiffly over the dog until his/her piont is made. If you haven't seen this for yourself, I'd suggest you check it out. Most people hwo create a aggressive dog, have a dog that will not submit (then what). I, when it comes to aggression (and again I ask, show me the abuse) will place a dog is this position, until they calm down and relax. Again, it always work. What I have found is, it doesn't work for those who don't understand nor can properly do it. and that is niether the fault of Cesar or myself. 

This thread doesn't belong in the CM area. Appears to be a baiting thread.

I know the difference between someone who honestly wants to discuss and understand something, and someone who is here to do just the opposite.

We can discuss Ian Dunbar, the Monks of New Skete, guide dog trainers, wolves, dogs, and everyone else who uses or has used it, why they stopped, and why a regular dog owner and most trainers should not do this.

I have a whole list of reasons why this should not be used unless it's done correctly and for the right reasons, by an experienced professional. 
 
But not here.

Read the rules of the forum.