People Magazine Article on CM

Did you intend the tone of your post to be so snide?  I replied to the parts where you say "that's simply your opinion" and "what's abusive about that" in my above post. If there is anything you else you would like me to answer, please clarify it politely.  I opened a new thread for anyone wishing to continue this line of discussion because while it interests me and I would like to find out more about the researh behind it, it's going off topic to continue it here.  I've since said I wasn't going to post more on that thread - don't try to bait me into continuing that discussion here please, I think that's inappropriate.  I've said my piece.  We have differing opinions and that is not going to change.  So what more needs to be said?

The reason I used the roll as an example of an abusive technique is that I've heard it put forward that no dog forcibly rolls another dog unless they are trying to kill it.

 
I totally disagree.....
 
You must come to my house then, and witness the rough housing going on with my dogs,3 of them get rolled on a regular basis, the other 2 do the rolling. It's just rough play, and all dogs are still alive, and not hurt.[] 
 
I find it interesting that you havent witnessed this type of behavior, what kind of dogs do you have ?

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

The reason I used the roll as an example of an abusive technique is that I've heard it put forward that no dog forcibly rolls another dog unless they are trying to kill it.  I don't know for sure 100% how true this is without getting inside a dogs mind, but having watched dogs interact, play and even fight I don't see examples of this "roll" anywhere.  I don't want to use a technique if there's a pretty good chance that by doing so, my dog believes I am trying to seriously harm or kill him - I would class that as abuse.  As for it simply being "my opinion" - the year is 2007.  Try googling "the alpha roll" and see what other "opinions" tell you, from people far more knowledgeable and experienced than me. In any cases, the AR could take up pages and pages if it had a thread all of its own. 

I listen to what people say on this subject and study the *theories* (

I think they really do have the welfare of dogs close to their heart and are concerned by the damage done by people attempting to emulate CM.

But what makes it sad is, the way they do it. they don't get or understand what he does, so they bash him. And yes, calling someone a abuser is bashing them. Would you like being called one? They could simply say, we don't agree with his tactics.

ORIGINAL: snownose

The reason I used the roll as an example of an abusive technique is that I've heard it put forward that no dog forcibly rolls another dog unless they are trying to kill it.

I totally disagree.....

You must come to my house then, and witness the rough housing going on with my dogs,3 of them get rolled on a regular basis, the other 2 do the rolling. It's just rough play, and all dogs are still alive, and not hurt.[] 

I find it interesting that you havent witnessed this type of behavior, what kind of dogs do you have ?

Sitting in my chair clapping at your post. I love it!!!

ORIGINAL: snownose

The reason I used the roll as an example of an abusive technique is that I've heard it put forward that no dog forcibly rolls another dog unless they are trying to kill it.

I totally disagree.....

You must come to my house then, and witness the rough housing going on with my dogs,3 of them get rolled on a regular basis, the other 2 do the rolling. It's just rough play, and all dogs are still alive, and not hurt.[] 

I find it interesting that you havent witnessed this type of behavior, what kind of dogs do you have ?

 
And yes you must come and see how Newt takes down a Great Dane.  I must also video for you how Newt mimics Frankenstein to get play submission in other members of the pack.  Newt is actually mimicing my play behavior.

The key word here is the word "forcibly". 
Play is a different situation and not relevant I think.  The dogs mind state is different in play than in a situation where he feels genuinely challenged and threatened.  If the other dog doesn't want to be rolled he doesn't have to be, it's only play and not serious. 
And in fact in play it's not rank related.  One of our dogs allowed the latest pup to "roll" him in play several times - and while they were getting quite rough there was certainly no force involved.

So, are you saying that dogs while at play, rolling involved, is not "Forcibly" done?
 
Ha, you could have fooled me.....
 
I am sorry, but what dogs do to each other during a rough housing session is much worse than the so called "Alpha Roll".
 
You still haven't told us what type of dogs you own.
 
 

I have mentioned this 2 other times in the Alpha thread.  I play wrestle with Newt and it goes far beyond the alpha roll.  Rank does matter, because he is not attempting to do it to me nor would I let him.  I am sure the naturalist are going to come along and explain how play in the wild helps establish rank and prepares the dogs for survival.

Well, in play, both my dogs take each other down all the time. Rank doesn't matter at all in that situation because it is totally in play. They take turns mounting each other, taking each other down, biting each other's scruffs. They don't do it to me because I've already taught them that putting their mouths on me is never acceptable. But that rules doesn't apply to one another.

I only commented on personal experience and what I've personally seen dogs do, i admit it's not infallible - but then it never will be, no matter who is offering their opinions or experience because the language of dogs is so subtle and complex there is too much room for misinterpretation.

I'm not sure you're right about the naturalists, I thought they were the ones that went around with no clothes on?????!!!

I think play is vital for learning about survival and communication but my *belief* is it is also about bonding and there are things permitted in play that appear to defy the normal ranking structure.  For example, when rough housing, our dogs frequently roll one another and status does not seem to come into it - sometimes the roll-er becomes the roll-ee, and then they switch again.  I would re-iterate that there is no force involved. 

I'm not going to comment further on the a/r because there's another thread open specifically for that topic now (admittedly this one has remianed more civil), which I've quite posting on.  So it looks like I'll sit the rest of this debate out although I might just watch it with interest in case it ever gets back on topic!  []  or in case any really good sources come up that I could look at - both supporting and contradicting all the views here.  OK, so i'm a dog nerd and info junkie - so shoot me.
 
ETA - PS. Thanks houndlove, now I know I'm not alone in that observation! 

I would re-iterate that there is no force involved.

 
If you really stand by that opinion, then an "Alpha Roll" applied by a person is also done without force.
 
I guess your view on "Force" makes no sense to me.

The reason I used the roll as an example of an abusive technique is that I've heard it put forward that no dog forcibly rolls another dog unless they are trying to kill it.

My sister's dane, Norma Jean, has forcibly alpha rolled my Dalmation, Blackhawk several times. Blackhawk is what we lovingly refer to as "socially retarded" and other dogs usually find him quite annoying. Norma Jean is normally very quiet and not terribly interested in other dogs but won't put up with rude behavior. If Blackhawk ignores her subltle signals, she grabs his scruff and puts him down on the ground. It sounds like she's trying to rip his face off and you expect to find a bloody stump in place of a head. But when Blackhawk stops struggling, Norma Jean walks away leaving behind a slobber-covered Dalmation who is much more respectful of her.

You see how no matter if you even say "I've seen the roll first hand (be it play or other wise)" people still want to tell you it doesn't happen because they have either not seen it themselves, or read it doesn't happen". My guess is, this will not change.

I would also like to add that some breeds are more aggressive than others.
 
Chuffy, that is the reason I have been trying to find out what breeds are in your household.
All of us bring their experience with their respective breeds, my experince has been with GSDs, Huskies, Mal., and mixes, even a Chow mix.
 
 
 
 
 

And I'll add to this, seeing for me is believing. I know what i've seen for myself, now let me point out what any of you can see. If Cesar's methods are so horrible, why does his pack of dogs (most who had severe aggression) seam so calm and happy. Care to explain that to us?