People Magazine Article on CM

The question here is, when is disagreeing considered bashing. I've noticed there's not a very high threshold for that.....

ORIGINAL: eley

The question here is, when is disagreeing considered bashing. I've noticed there's not a very high threshold for that.....

Here is a good example of disagreement between me and corvus that was taken in a positive and mature way

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=239020&mpage=4]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=239020&mpage=4[/link]

Here is one that was not well discuss between the members of the forum, you can totally tell who is not really focusing on the first post

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=150782&mpage=1&key=cesar%2Cmillan𤽿]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=150782&mpage=1&key=cesar%2Cmillan𤽿[/link]

And thats how it happens always

ORIGINAL: eley

The question here is, when is disagreeing considered bashing. I've noticed there's not a very high threshold for that.....

And I've noticed a high amount of snide remarks and bashing. And I don't consider disagreeing, bashing.

Let's start over and have interesting conversations, and no more "I remember back in August you said blah blah blah" type stuff! []

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Let's start over and have interesting conversations, and no more "I remember back in August you said blah blah blah" type stuff! []

Yes, as the great Cesar once said: "Let's focus our energy on the now."[]

Sounds good to me. But then again I don't have the history some people have here, so I can see how that might be a little difficult. But, lets see shall we. LOL

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: eley

The question here is, when is disagreeing considered bashing. I've noticed there's not a very high threshold for that.....

Here is a good example of disagreement between me and corvus that was taken in a positive and mature way

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=239020&mpage=4]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=239020&mpage=4[/link]

Here is one that was not well discuss between the members of the forum, you can totally tell who is not really focusing on the first post

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=150782&mpage=1&key=cesar%2Cmillan𤽿]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=150782&mpage=1&key=cesar%2Cmillan𤽿[/link]

And thats how it happens always

 
 
Duuuuude, your second link just totally screwed the pooch on my computer, can you please fix that? It made my browser go absolutely insane.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Chuffy,

As usual, only showing up in this section to drag the topic off course and push the agenda of the "anti-Cesar" folks.

Mark Derr is no expert on dog training, social communication, or behavior. His book is promoted by the "Positive Only" faction. He is a puppet of these folks who all seem to congregate through the "Bark" rag.

All he does in his very sad op-ed piece is spew what he has been told to say by a certain group of extremists. It's hillarious and it's pure poop.

I can always dig up some articles I read in response to this "piece of work", and post them here if we want to continue off-topic...

Please read the rules of this forum, leave the garbage at the door, and stay on topic.

Gosh, sorry I'm late.

On the contrary, that was a direct reply to the original post - the poster did not understand why some trainers feel CM is barbaric and abusive and felt that much of the feeling against him boiled down to jealousy.  The entire post was in answer to that - hardly off topic.

With regards to Derr - I haven't supported anything he has said with regards to dog training, communication and behaviour, I picked out one phrase from an article posted by someone else and said, Look I think THIS sums up why so many trainers have an issue with CM - again in answer to OP.  Whether you agree with it or not, I think it echoes the general feeling against him amongst many trainers.  It just so happened Derr coined that phrase.  What else he has written and how knowledgeable you think he is is perfectly irrelevant. 

I am curious as to precisely which parts of my post were garbage/off topic although I suspect you won't be able to answer that without being impolite (again).  Perhaps you could have simply picked out a specific part you disagreed with and stated why and the debate could have raged from there?  Strangely, after you wrongly accused me of dragging the whole thing off topic, the whole darned thread went off the rails and everyone started discussing politically correct ways to interact on the forum and what a shame it is when it all breaks down yadayadayada...... and then you say "wisdom is creeping in", when in fact there has not been a single On Topic post since.  

I don't know whether people think I'm guilty for "bashing" in this instance - a lot of CMs stuff is a bit old fashioned and one or two of his techniques are definately what I would class as "abusive" (in particular the alpha roll), but I don't think that constitutes "bashing" someone.   When the original post expresses that the person doesn't understand how CM could be seen as barbaric and that people opposing him must be jealous, it's kind of hard to answer that without  sounding like you are a) bashing the poor bloke and/or b) pushing the agenda of the anti CM crowd.  Unless every single answer on the thread was "Yeah wow man, they must be so misguided!"  Which would have been pretty boring.
 
ETA - emphasis added by me btw

[sm=soap%20box.gif][sm=rotfl.gif]

Cesar The Barbarian![sm=evilfire.gif]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I don't know whether people think I'm guilty for "bashing" in this instance - a lot of CMs stuff is a bit old fashioned and one or two of his techniques are definately what I would class as "abusive" (in particular the alpha roll).

I'd say that's simply your opinion. But lets take a little look at it shall we? I don't know about you but I deal with a lot of dogs who want to bite me. Now if you not in that position you can certainly *claim* Cesar is using a abusive technique, but again, that does make it anything other than your opinion. So I'll ask this, because I too use that technique. A dogs bites me, I calmly but assertively get him to the ground so one, he can't bite me again, and two I can calm him/her down. I use very little pressure, wait until the dog is relaxed, let the dog up, the dogs not harmed. What's abusive about that? Again, even mother dogs will correct their young, higher ranking members will correct lower ranking ones, And! I might add, unlike me, they will not be gentile in doing so.

Jones: The link is working perfectly in my computer []

Chuffy: The wheel was invented a loooooooooooong time ago and not because of that we should call it old-fashioned or out of date, right? [] the only difference is that other techniques came out after but that does not make them better, they are just different, and that does not make behaviorist techniques out of date either

The reason I used the roll as an example of an abusive technique is that I've heard it put forward that no dog forcibly rolls another dog unless they are trying to kill it.  I don't know for sure 100% how true this is without getting inside a dogs mind, but having watched dogs interact, play and even fight I don't see examples of this "roll" anywhere.  I don't want to use a technique if there's a pretty good chance that by doing so, my dog believes I am trying to seriously harm or kill him - I would class that as abuse.  As for it simply being "my opinion" - the year is 2007.  Try googling "the alpha roll" and see what other "opinions" tell you, from people far more knowledgeable and experienced than me. In any cases, the AR could take up pages and pages if it had a thread all of its own. 
 

ORIGINAL: espencer

The wheel was invented a loooooooooooong time ago and not because of that we should call it old-fashioned or out of date, right?

 
Very good point, precisely why I don't think it constitutes bashing.  Being old fashioned in itself doesn't make you wrong.  But it is a reason why trainers may be exasperated at CM - he is pushing ideas they have been trying to move people away from for years because they believe them to be at best difficult for the handler and at worst harmful to the dog and even potentially dangerous.  I genuinely don't think this is founded in jealousy or misunderstanding of his methods - I think they really do have the welfare of dogs close to their heart and are concerned by the damage done by people attempting to emulate CM.

Cesar The Barbarian!

 
That is too funny[]

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I don't know whether people think I'm guilty for "bashing" in this instance - a lot of CMs stuff is a bit old fashioned and one or two of his techniques are definately what I would class as "abusive" (in particular the alpha roll).

I'd say that's simply your opinion. But lets take a little look at it shall we? I don't know about you but I deal with a lot of dogs who want to bite me. Now if you not in that position you can certainly *claim* Cesar is using a abusive technique, but again, that does make it anything other than your opinion. So I'll ask this, because I too use that technique. A dogs bites me, I calmly but assertively get him to the ground so one, he can't bite me again, and two I can calm him/her down. I use very little pressure, wait until the dog is relaxed, let the dog up, the dogs not harmed. What's abusive about that? Again, even mother dogs will correct their young, higher ranking members will correct lower ranking ones, And! I might add, unlike me, they will not be gentile in doing so.

Oh, I'm sorry, did you feel the need to not answer this post chuffy? I'd love to here your answer.