People Magazine Article on CM

I don't think examining/discussing/analyzing someone's methods constitutes slamming.

Saying a show is more entertainment oriented than scientific orientated is not slamming.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada
WOW some people on here are way too sensitive about CM stuff.

For me, it's not just Cesar, I can't stand to hear any trainer who does their best to make the world a better place for dogs get slammed. I see that I misunderstood the post and have retracted, and apologized for my comment.

RWBeagles, Off-topic but in another thread you told a poster to wait for the next day and things will be different.  What a shining example of that good advice.

RWBeagles, Off-topic but in another thread you told a poster to wait for the next day and things will be different. What a shining example of that good advice.

 
 
Was that the "Iditarod" thread?
 
I guess we need to get back on topic.

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

Awsome, not a problem.
 
And, by no means does my being a co-mod mean I can take "cheap shots" at anyone...lol. I'm accountable like anyone else here (the big boss Jaime would come calling, lol) for what I type.
 
I re-read my post and I can see how you easily could have misunderstood, so I too apologize for not being clearer.
 
I think we both should be good to go from here on out []

Cool Beans

ORIGINAL: JM

I don't think examining/discussing/analyzing someone's methods constitutes slamming.

Saying a show is more entertainment oriented than scientific orientated is not slamming.

And I think saying I misunderstood, and apologizing, negates your post.

It would be great to see a purely clicker-and-treat or "shaping" show. I would enjoy it as much as any other show. I would love to see it used on a variety of animals, I would love to see it used on dogs, I would love to see how it is used in agility, and most of all I would love to see it used on a truely human aggressive, adult dog. []
 

 

ORIGINAL: Angelique

It would be great to see a purely clicker-and-treat or "shaping" show. I would love to see it used on a truely human aggressive, adult dog. []

Let not be silly now. LOL

ORIGINAL: Angelique

It would be great to see a purely clicker-and-treat or "shaping" show. I would enjoy it as much as any other show. I would love to see it used on a variety of animals, I would love to see it used on dogs, I would love to see how it is used in agility, and most of all I would love to see it used on a truely human aggressive, adult dog. []

 
I am currently taking a Clicker Training Course to expand my experience and after two sessions, I do not see how you can fill up the entire season.  My instructor promised us at the end of 8 week training we can return the clickers issued.

I think a great show would be one centered around clicker training - not just dogs, but many animals. It's fun seeing how behavioral methods apply across different species. And like Angelique said, to see it at work in agility, shaping, police dog training, etc would be neat.

OMG and LOL! I just remembered! []
 
There was a show I saw which contained both Brad Pitt and the use of positive reinforcement to train a performing animal, in this case Bart the bear, owned and worked with by a very "bear instinctive" man named Doug Suess.
 
Not about living with dogs as family members, but it was a great show! Bart and Brad worked together in the movie "Legends of the Fall".
 

Just read the People article (I think kindly posted by espencer or someone quite early on) and this bit made me hoot!
 
Writer Mark Derr, in a recent New York Times editorial, went as far as to call Millan a "charming, one-man wrecking ball directed at 40 years of progress in understanding and shaping dog behavior."
 
But it does seem to sum up the way the anti-CM crowd feel about him.  It has nothing to do with misunderstanding or jealousy. It's frustration.  He has achieved the status of celebrity and he's using it to push ideas that most trainers have been trying to move away from for decades.  They must be tearing their hair out, all that hard work trying to educate people and make life better for dogs and CM effortlessly reduces it to nothing.  And sure there are a few thinking along the lines of "Argh!  Why is HE famous???  When I was growing up and learning about dogs, the most respected trainers of the day were doing stuff like that before CM was out of Nappies!!  What's he doing thats so darn special?? And if he has to be famous, why is he pushing this out-of-date confrontational stuff which isn't even safe for most owners to replicate?????" 
 
What he does is not really new.  It's old stuff, old ideas, old techniques.  A great many trainers and owners started out with similar ideas and methods, being touted waaaay bfore CMs time and, with time and experience, found other ways which they perceive to be better.  Because they were kinder to the dog?   Because they could be fun for the dog and his handler?  Because they were based on research that has been done into how a dog thinks and learns rather than a flawed human perception of the wolf pack?  Well, they thought them better anyhow.  Dog training on the whole progressed and we all thought we were leaving flawed, barbaric, abusive techniques (like the "alpha roll") in the past with rubbing a dog's nose in his own mess.  And then, along comes CM.....  No wonder feelings run so high.  What I don't get is why his army of fans don't understand this - or simply dismiss it as jealousy or misunderstanding.

It has nothing to do with misunderstanding or jealousy. It's frustration.  He has achieved the status of celebrity and he's using it to push ideas that most trainers have been trying to move away from for decades.

Good point! I truly think frustration is behind many of the over-the-top statements about Cesar. I do wonder if "most trainers" are frustrated with Cesar and his methods or if it's the most *vocal* trainers are against Cesar. There really isn't any good statistics on dog or animal trainers and the techniques they use, so that would be hard to determine. There are many "non-celebrity" trainers out there that aren't household names that use +R as much as possible, but still see a value in corrections. I asked a co-worker who is in a dog club that is very competitive in obediance and agility. We didn't have nearly enough time to have a thorough discussion of the topic, but she feels that most of the other members of her club are middle of the road, like her. They try to use +R as much as possible, but will also use correction when they feel it is necessary. There are people who lean more towards Koehler-style and others that lean more towards +R only, but most are inbetween.

I have no problem with differering viewpoints and criticism. But when people start using over-the-top statements like "wrecking ball" or "barbaric" or "abusive" I start thinking that things are getting personal and the actual science of training is getting lost in the rhetoric. I want to know why something else works better, not how you feel the other guy is wrong. While I don't worship Cesar, I have learned many good things watching his show and it has encouraged me to learn more through books and online. I like the fact that I have never heard him speak badly about another trainer or training method. He just talks about what works for him and why he thinks it works.

Chuffy,

As usual, only showing up in this section to drag the topic off course and push the agenda of the "anti-Cesar" folks.

Mark Derr is no expert on dog training, social communication, or behavior. His book is promoted by the "Positive Only" faction. He is a puppet of these folks who all seem to congregate through the "Bark" rag.

All he does in his very sad op-ed piece is spew what he has been told to say by a certain group of extremists. It's hillarious and it's pure poop.

I can always dig up some articles I read in response to this "piece of work", and post them here if we want to continue off-topic...

Please read the rules of this forum, leave the garbage at the door, and stay on topic.

And once again you're quick to reply with language about extremists and conspiracies, puppets and dark cabals of insiders plotting the overthrow of the dog world in order to achieve their secret goal of killing all imperfect dogs. It's really, incredibly accusatory and off-putting. There are other ways of saying "I disagree" than to jump to these kinds of conclusions. And I think the quote in your sig pretty much says it all about anyone who you feel disagrees with you. We're mediocre minds plotting to violently oppress you.

I have no problem with differering viewpoints and criticism. But when people start using over-the-top statements like "wrecking ball" or "barbaric" or "abusive"
 
I agree with you here, but you must always consider the source...what is "the media" FOR...if not to bandy about hot button words....misquote...take out of context...overdo everything they cover?