who does the Discipline, exercise, and affection

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: gunny1

how about walks off leash?

I see a huge difference i behavior from off leash walks. It seems it's much more free and rewarding than, a walk that is dominated by control of the leash.

I love this - we have one or two beaches in the area that have off leash sections (off leash does not mean out of control - we do have rules).
Have you ever noticed that when you have dogs off leash, and leave them to their own devices, they don't walk right behind you on your left side? []   
However, I notice that mine still "check in" with me, on a more or less constant basis (think they want to know where the leader is?) and they come when I call, even if they are chasing another dog into the surf. Now, granted, herders are far more likely to do this, but the hound does it, too, and even though I seldom take Fergie off the leash, I do it occasionally on our property, and she does the same thing. Now, I suppose that my training protocols have probably contributed to that response, since they do realize who the leader is, but they have never been on a "forced march" as it were, so they got the idea from regular exercise, training, and our relationship.  NOT, from "discipline" per se. 
Here's another consideration - how many of you would let someone ELSE discipline your dog?  Not I, for sure.  But, yet, my BF issues commands, too, and as long as he makes them sound the same (uses the same words or phrases that I do), the dogs obey him.  One of the first things I do with any dog that comes here to live is to hand feed them for two weeks - and, I make him hand feed them as well.   Seems to have an effect.   . 

 
My dog does the same thing, when we are walking together off leash he always runs ahead a bit and then turnsaorund and comes back to check in.
 
Also, my husband just dosen't get it.  He is always trying to get River respond to commands but by using his own words instead of what I have taught him.  Then he wonders why he reponds so well to me and not him.  He keeps telling people he's Mama's boy. 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I love this - we have one or two beaches in the area that have off leash sections (off leash does not mean out of control - we do have rules).
Have you ever noticed that when you have dogs off leash, and leave them to their own devices, they don't walk right behind you on your left side? []

Lets look at the big picture. Dogs in a pack *being led* do not walk out in front of the pack leader, for a good reason, they know the pack leader will not stand for it. They also know his/her correction will not be gentile. If a humans dog walks out in front of them, it's because the human allows it and the dog knows this.
 

However, I notice that mine still "check in" with me, on a more or less constant basis (think they want to know where the leader is?) and they come when I call, even if they are chasing another dog into the surf.

Perhaps you have not only well trained your dogs (obvious by the fact they'll come when called "even when chasing another dog") but all the time and training has paid off. Something (saddly) enough people don't do. There are other ways to teach a dog besides walking positions who the pack leader is. One should be aware though that not only do most people not use nilif, don't practice obt, or leadership, would be in big trouble walking their dogs off leash, especially out in front of them. It can be a dangerous thing to have the dog be the first to approach, other dogs, other people, and children. Something one need not worry about if the dog is in a proper and safe position.

 

Now, granted, herders are far more likely to do this, but the hound does it, too, and even though I seldom take Fergie off the leash, I do it occasionally on our property, and she does the same thing.

Could it be perhaps on your property, your dog goes into job mode and not follow mode. It is something dogs do.

Now, I suppose that my training protocols have probably contributed to that response, since they do realize who the leader is, but they have never been on a "forced march" as it were, so they got the idea from regular exercise, training, and our relationship.  NOT, from "discipline" per se.

I would agree, your training (again) I believe is key here, but also your dogs natural temperment could be a factor as well.

What is a "force march"? My dogs walk with me, and as far as I can tell, they seem to have a great time, and love it! They know we're walking out to hunt, play, have a good time sniffing around, and then walk back home.

As far as discipline goes, don't most of us (at least who teach their dogs) use some form of discilpline. Saying "No! leave it, is a correction.
 

Here's another consideration - how many of you would let someone ELSE discipline your dog?  Not I, for sure.

I agree.

Hope you don't mind my quoting you, just doing me best to make my answers clear.

In this order:
 
Exercise, behavior modification (ongoing with young dogs),affection, then training.

Do you have a reference for this...This seems to be a common ideaology but I haven't seen any documentation......

"Dogs in a pack *being led* do not walk out in front of the pack leader, for a good reason, they know the pack leader will not stand for it."

I am asking due to a couple of scenes on CM's show.

One was a small dog in his pack who CM referred to as "The Commander".  Which I took to mean, top dog.  Dogs were walking hither and thither around and in front of him and no corrections were applied.

Also when CM enters his own pack, dogs are hither thither and not always beside him either.  He doesn't seem to mind much.

I grew up in an era when leashing dogs was not the norm.  When the neigborhood kids got together for a day in the woods, their dogs went also. I can't recall any correctng behavior  from another dog to a subordinate for walking out in front.

So here is the logic:   My dog walks in front.  He is then alpha. I am subordinate due to walking behind him. He considers himself pack leader.  Dominate Dog.

Here is where the logic ends:  He stops and sniffs and I just walk on by. He cares absolutely squat.

No corrections from him toward me.

Usually he just runs to catch up.

So if in fact, a dog does considers himself pack leader for being in front, , a pack leader will not apply corrections,  but will run to catch up to a subordinate.

ORIGINAL: JM

Also when CM enters his own pack, dogs are hither thither and not always beside him either.  He doesn't seem to mind much.

So here is the logic:   My dog walks in front.  He is then alpha. I am subordinate due to walking behind him. He considers himself pack leader.  Dominate Dog.

Here is where the logic ends:  He stops and sniffs and I just walk on by. He cares absolutely squat.

No corrections from him toward me.

Usually he just runs to catch up.

So if in fact, a dog does considers himself pack leader for being in front, , a pack leader will not apply corrections,  but will run to catch up to a subordinate.

 
Well when CM enters his pack he is just doing that, just like entering your house so no need to be behind him
 
The point of not let your dog walk in front of you to see you as pack leader is for those people who have dogs that do not see their owners as pack leaders yet, the fact of having the dog not walking next to you is to help the dog to realize that, once you are 100% sure your dog do it that way and even can walk with him off leash then is not as important, i've seen Cesar walking and have dogs being wondring around a couple steps ahead, but he still controls the walk and he has no need to be calling back his dogs
 

Well my point is...I would like to see some reference or documentation that verifies that pack leaders always stay in front. While subordinates have to stay behind or by their side....or a correction from the pack leader is in order.

And I am also wondering...for those with dominate dogs, or dogs who consider themselves the pack leader instead of the human.....how and when is your dog correcting you during walks?

ORIGINAL: JM

Well my point is...I would like to see some reference or documentation that verifies that pack leaders always stay in front. While subordinates have to stay behind or by their side....or a correction from the pack leader is in order.

And I am also wondering...for those with dominate dogs, or dogs who consider themselves the pack leader instead of the human.....how and when is your dog correcting you during walks?

This is my reference:

[linkhttp://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/blog/Season2ep08.php]http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/blog/Season2ep08.php[/link]

Now if you want scientific documents with graphics and everything i think Google can help you in your quest, i am sure you will find what you are looking for []

Well look, if you're going to claim you train dogs "naturalistically" and "based on thier canine instincts" then you'd better have some documentation of what "natural" and "instinctual" is for a dog.

Lots of people are in a career for 25+ years and still don't know what they're doing. I've observed veteran teachers, 30+ years, who are completely clueless as to the science and art of teaching and learning. I've also observed teachers who've only been at it for a couple years and are clearly both gifted and dedicated to learning everythign they can about what science says about how to be the most effective teacher you can be. Age and experience has nothing to do with it.

On topic:
 
My formula is exercise via the structured walk which includes freetime breaks to roam and sniff. I walk on the roads and trails near where I live, and also have access to a large private beach for off-leash running and exploring.
 
Discipline occurs anytime I am setting a boundary by using "eh-eh" or "hey", which simply means "stop what you are doing and pay attention to me", or when I use my recall whistle, if my dog is at a distance.
 
I also give my dog affection during the walks while we are having freetime.
 
During the structured part of the walk, I keep her focused (in the zone) and moving to work on ignoring distractions, other dogs, and people. I also work on moving past anything unusual which might cause her concern and practice walking through the water, which she was initially very fearful of.
 
For me, the exercise portion helps with the discipline portion. The affection part of the formula occurs whenever I find it appropriate.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Well look, if you're going to claim you train dogs "naturalistically" and "based on thier canine instincts" then you'd better have some documentation of what "natural" and "instinctual" is for a dog.

Lots of people are in a career for 25+ years and still don't know what they're doing. I've observed veteran teachers, 30+ years, who are completely clueless as to the science and art of teaching and learning. I've also observed teachers who've only been at it for a couple years and are clearly both gifted and dedicated to learning everythign they can about what science says about how to be the most effective teacher you can be. Age and experience has nothing to do with it.

I apologize for that, the post has been changed []

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: corvus


Ha! Tell my dog that. She's a student in English and has been for 11 years. You'd be amazed what she can pick out and understand in everyday talk. She understands a lot of individual words, as well as the general gist of common phrases, tone and inflection.

That's a nice story to tell ones self, however, it's just that. I never said dog don't understand certain sounds, or certain "tones and inflections". They do not however have a grasp of the "human language". And until they can speak, we'll never really grasp just how many words (sounds) not phases they do understand. One trainer was trying to prove to another trainer that his dog certainly understood certain phrases. He stated his dog understood the phase "want to go for a ride" and would only respond a certain way when hearing this phrase. The other trainer said, "fine, wait a few minutes and say to your dog in the same way, "one two three hide". The dogs responce was exactly the same. Interesting, yes?

But moot, seeing as it was you who said words are a waste of energy and I was simply refuting that, with the example of my dog and the way she understood and responded to each word or phrase in my example. My dog is largely voice-trained because I talk to her a lot when we're doing things together. I find it very handy to teach her what a lot of phrases and words mean so I can tell her what we're doing when she's not watching me. It's nice when she's 10 metres ahead of me and approaching a road and I can say "Penny, stop there." and she stops, and then I can say "wait for me" and she waits. She only understands her name, stop, and wait, but she can pick those words out of a sentence and respond accordingly. Whether she responds to tone or the words themselves doesn't mean much, because when I say "stop?" it means something different to humans than "stop" does. Means something different to dogs, too. Just like when I say "Penny" in a flat tone means something different to my dog than when I say "Penny!" in an excited tone, or "PENNY!" in a growly tone. I didn't say she had a grasp of human language either, but I did say words were not a waste of energy on her, and I think I've proven that through example.

I agree that dogs may interpret sounds a bit differently, but clearly they are capable of forming associations based on those sounds, which we term "words and phrases".  If I say "frisbee" Sequoyah heads for the door.  Does she know what a frisbee is?  Probably not.  Has she associated the sound with the fact that we are headed out to play with that flying thing that she likes to catch?  Probably.  And, I do think that if you use the same words and phrases, the dog picks up on those associations faster - I mean, that's what cue'ing is all about, whether it's hand signals or words - forming an association.  Now, if you ask me whether my dogs "know everything I'm saying to them", I doubt that they do.  What I do think is that they pick up on my rate of respiration, my body language, sounds, and other signals, and respond to them.  The way they respond sometimes would make it easy to anthropomorphize.  But, I do think that they understand more than we think, based on those signals we give off, and I believe they do feel emotion.  So, when we are together, I make an effort to consider my dogs' feelings - are they tired, do they need to pee, are we walking a boring route, etc.  Exercise and affection are important, and discipline - well, I prefer to teach my dogs self control, so that I don't need to resort to that very much (Suzanne Clothier has a great little booklet about teaching self control).

ORIGINAL: JM

Well my point is...I would like to see some reference or documentation that verifies that pack leaders always stay in front. While subordinates have to stay behind or by their side....or a correction from the pack leader is in order.

And I am also wondering...for those with dominate dogs, or dogs who consider themselves the pack leader instead of the human.....how and when is your dog correcting you during walks?

I also feel like this walking in front thing is dubious at best and quite possibly a load of bollocks. I believe that in a wild wolf pack, maybe the wolves might follow the alpha not so much because he/she will correct them if they get in front, but because it's easy to lose your way if someone behind you is making the decisions. When I walk my dog in an open environment, she ranges all around, going ahead, stopping to smell something, falling behind, catching up, checking out something nearby and to the side... I might call her name once or twice during an hour long offlead walk just to hurry her up or ask her to slow down. It's not really necessary, though. She checks me constantly to make sure she knows where I am. If we move onto a very narrow path in a closed environment where she can't easily see me, she falls in right on my heels and stays there until the environment opens out again. This suggests to me that she knows I choose our route and her inherent interest is in making sure she knows where I am so she doesn't get lost rather than staying behind me to respect my position.

My dog is also a herder, so is naturally keen not to get seperated from me, but we do have a more independent herder who likes to go off on his own. He still keeps pace with us, though. Sometimes he'll disappear for 10 minutes, but you can tell he's nearby because you hear him from time to time. We just keep making lots of noise and he doesn't get lost. He comes racing to check in after a while and stays in sight for a while longer, sometimes the rest of the walk. Seems like he doesn't really want to lose us, either. Jill is part herder, and she tends to stay in sight as well. My idea is that if I largely ignore where my dog happens to be, she takes care of keeping up herself, whether she happens to be ahead, alongside, or behind. Perhaps a wolf alpha doesn't correct, but ignores laggers or others shooting ahead and puts the responsibility of keeping tabs on the pack on them?

ORIGINAL: JM

Do you have a reference for this...This seems to be a common ideaology but I haven't seen any documentation......

"Dogs in a pack *being led* do not walk out in front of the pack leader, for a good reason, they know the pack leader will not stand for it." .

Yes years of studying dogs and pack behavior, both domesticated and wild.

I am asking due to a couple of scenes on CM's show.

One was a small dog in his pack who CM referred to as "The Commander".  Which I took to mean, top dog.  Dogs were walking hither and thither around and in front of him and no corrections were applied.

There is walking mode, working mode, play mode, and relax mode. When the pack leaders are leading their pack out on a hunt, the other members must follow them in order to know just where it is their going. The same applies when moving to new sleeping quarters. Pack members follow the leader and higher ranking members to the hunting location (follow mode), then they spread out to *do their job* (working mode). Pack leaders know they must always appear strong and in control other wise the next in line may attack, even kill them, and take over the pack. Which happened with a wonderful group of people who raise wolves to be released to the wild. The pack leader was a 7 year old male, in a moment of him showing weakness it was his own 2 year old daughter who attacked, killed him, and took over thew pack. As for domesticated situations. same as sismar to what you may have seen with Cesar. When I walk my pack of dogs, they walk following me, when we enter our play area or I ask them to go into work mode, they are permitted to move about as they please. When walking a bomb dog into a search area the dog must be at my side, once i clip the leash from his/her collar to their harness (so their not restricted in movement) they go into work mode, out front, hunting for the explosives (they after all have the keen sense of smell, approx 1000 times that of a human).

Also when CM enters his own pack, dogs are hither thither and not always beside him either.  He doesn't seem to mind much.

Again, location, situation.

I grew up in an era when leashing dogs was not the norm.  When the neigborhood kids got together for a day in the woods, their dogs went also. I can't recall any correctng behavior  from another dog to a subordinate for walking out in front.

Those are dogs playing, no leader is nessesary.

So here is the logic:   My dog walks in front.  He is then alpha. I am subordinate due to walking behind him. He considers himself pack leader.  Dominate Dog.

Depends if it's daily walks your refering to, and your dog is leading you, he/she is infact, the leader. this is one reason peoples dogs only listen to them when they feel like it. Now, that being said, there's the (what we call) the happy go lucky dog, where nothing much really matters to them. I think it is this that confuses so many people. they end up with one or two of these dogs and think all dogs are like that. which is simply not the case.

Here is where the logic ends:  He stops and sniffs and I just walk on by. He cares absolutely squat.

No corrections from him toward me.

Him being confused about who the is leader, doesn't always bring about dominace or aggression. And again there's the happy go lucky factor.

Usually he just runs to catch up.

So if in fact, a dog does considers himself pack leader for being in front, , a pack leader will not apply corrections,  but will run to catch up to a subordinate.

Not seeing or knowing the complete dynamics of you, your dog, and your life, that really doesn't mean much to me.

ORIGINAL: JM

Well my point is...I would like to see some reference or documentation that verifies that pack leaders always stay in front. While subordinates have to stay behind or by their side....or a correction from the pack leader is in order.

Well you've got your work cut out for you. I'd suggest you do what I did. Years of research and study.

And I am also wondering...for those with dominate dogs, or dogs who consider themselves the pack leader instead of the human.....how and when is your dog correcting you during walks?

LOL it's not that your pet will correct you, it's that he/she will see no reason to listen to you expect when they please, and!, infact it's just one reason dogs become aggressive towards their owners and or other dogs and people.