Just a general rant on aggression

JessesGirl, I resent the implication only clicker trainers fail at rehabbing aggressive dogs, or recommend euthanizing an aggressive dog.  That is certainly not the case. 
No trainer, whatever the method they are using, should attempt to take on any client that is more than they can handle, and should make appropriate referrals.  And, euthanasia is never the trainer's choice, it's the owner's.
I think that some trainers do have a bias that says owners should euth an aggressive dog, as there are plenty of good dogs dying in shelters every day, so why not save one of them instead of continuing a relationship with a dog that is a distinct liability.  But, that does not imply that the trainer is incapable, just that they don't see the point of keeping such a dog, especially if there are other factors to consider, such as other animals or children in the home, how securely the owner can contain the dog, how capable the client is of implementing a training or behavior modification protocol, etc.
I can often predict that a client will or will not succeed, but my job is to give them options, explain the implications, and then let them decide what to do with their dog.  But, the fact is that, while you can train, and you can manage, you usually can't totally remove aggression from the dog's toolbox for dealing with life.  Anyone who says you can be 100% certain a dog will never transgress again is fooling you and just looking for your money.  The correct answer always is that owning an aggressive dog poses an inherent risk, and that is something the owner must come to terms with.  But, there is nothing wrong with clicker training as a method to use when rehabbing dogs.  In fact, used properly, it's one of the better ones. 

Lori--
 
I think you do a great job of balancing Willow's "social" skills at your house. I know she sees people there and then she is put away with a treat and she's happy and you get to visit. And I know she gets out, too, on her walks. I think you have a nice balance going there.
 
One of the most interesting things I came across was Pat Miller's writing about how a dog owner ought to manage the dog/situation until the dog can handle it. If that never happens, then it doesn't, and if does, then it does.
 
I think my goal, with Murphy, is to manage him so nobody is hurt whiile I keep working with him. I don't want to just manage him and nothing else, because I believe he has a lot of potential, but I have to manage him and keep everyone safe until (or if) he "gets there."
 
Last weekend when he saw my sister (aka "Cookie Lady") come through the garage door, he didn't bark, like he would have 3 months ago. Instead, he bounded across the room to her, wagging his tail so much his body was wiggling. He did the same thing when he saw my boyfriend last night, and he doesn't see Jim very often. He was outside, wandering around, and Jim went out with The Guest Only Treats, and Murphy saw him and bounded to him, smiles all over his face. He happily took treats from Jim (aka "Cookie Man") and that made me so happy. He even tried to give him a kiss, but I told Jim to "keep your face up away from him" out of, well, informed nerves. I don't think he would have bit Jim, but hey, I'm not taking any chances yet. He was smiling and trying to lick his face, but still.
 
It's made the little work I've done in this area worth it. And trust me, it's been a lot of work for two small results and that will fuel me for a long time. I also keep The Guest Only Treats on me for a couple of elderly people and two kids (under 10, so, scary situation, I kow) he has visited (for months now) before (in the neighborhood). I let them toss treats down to Murphy--obviously, since I'm nervous about him getting too close, I make him sit next to me until the treats are on the ground and everyone has moved back before he gets them--and he's happy to see them--wagging and calm. He sees them as treat dispensers.
 
So, it's not much and of course I would have to do tons more, but watching him want to approach Jim and my sister meant the world to me.

After reading Spiritdogs' post, maybe we're all trying to define aggression.
 
Maybe that's the question here.

I think Anne's post is great.  The only thing I'd like to comment on is that my experience with trainers, I have to say, has stunk. 

And, I think a lot of times they need a behaviorist more than a trainer.  After I gave up on trainers, I taught her all the commands myself.  However, even at this point I'm still considering having her evaluated for her anxiety by a behaviorist. 

I think a lot of times too, they start to act better just from being in a good, stable environment.  There are situations that she's much better in now than before that I never really did anything with. 
 
For example, today at the groomers, she was in the waiting area with me and she was extremely nervous, she was shaking.  Well, right at this time a lady comes over and makes a comment about her and puts her hand out.  I wasn't expecting her to do that, considering Willow's obvious state. 
 
This is were I get upset sometimes, people just do the most idiotic things, things I can't even forsee and I'm supposed to be keeping her safe???
 
Well, I had no choice but to just play it cool and I told her "gentle" and she LICKED the lady's hand.  I can tell you I was ready to grab her if needed.  If that had happened in a calm situation I wouldn't of been worried but her state right then, I'm just surprised she reacted so well.  But, three years ago the lady would of gotten growled at.  She's just improved in some areas on her own. 
 
The other night I took a bone from her.  Now, nobody else can or even would try but I can now.  And, I didn't work on the food issues at all. 

Lori, of course you worked on the food issues...you became her leader. []

Believe me, I get frustrated at my colleagues, too!!!!  It is not a business that people should just jump into based solely on their experience with one method, one dog, one trainer.  Yet, I know trainers who have NEVER completely learned how to teach a dog by means of operant conditioning using positive reinforcement and swear that it doesn't work.  I used to use their methods, switched, and now realize that what I am doing now far exceeds anything done in past decades.  Yet, I know that the reason it's working so well for me and my students is that I learned to do it correctly.  I was fortunate to have had several excellent mentors, and the ability to pay for the knowledge of the best in the field of training and behavior.  Thousands of dollars and forty years later, here I am.  But, someone who takes a liking to dogs, reads three books and goes to the big box pet store for the only training they ever had, does not impress me.  If someone is a beginning trainer, they should say so, and should refer problem dogs to someone more capable with those issues.  I did that for several years until I was comfortable enough to work with those dogs (and owners LOL) myself.  There are some dogs I still would refer to a DVM for psychopharmacological intervention, for example.

nfowler, as to defining aggression, you bring up an important point.  Some people say a dog is aggressive if it nips while playing with other puppies.  And, the other end of the spectrum - some people don't concede that a dog is aggressive until it rips someone's face off.  Aggression is a survival skill that all dogs possess.  That's how I look at it.  So, my job as a trainer (and some would say behaviorist without the advanced degree, though I don't refer to myself that way) is to see if I can moderate the circumstances that elicit it, sufficient to cause the dog to stop having to use it.  The key to ascertaining whether any dog is safe, IMO, is figuring out if you can manage the dog's environment sufficiently.  In Lori's case, she has managed that very well in the past, and now sees that her dog has learned that her owner will keep her safe even in moderately frightening circumstances, so she doesn't react on her own as much as before. But, it is when that cannot be done, or the owners aren't capable, that you run into problems...

Any of you who live in the CT area may want to check out www.puppyworks.com.  Sue Sternberg & others are holding a "biting dog conference" in October.  I may not be going, since I've seen her portion before, but it is useful info for anyone who wants to work with aggressive dogs.  How to know when a dog will bite you, and where.

Spiritdogs: Really good point about trainers and aggression!

I *am* a beginning trainer. I've been seriously into obedience for 5 years now, and feel that I'm adequately qualified to teach basic obedience and socialization to puppies and dogs with no serious issues. I'm relatively educated on two or three other types of 'issues' (I'm *great* at desensitizing and motivating dogs, , I'm relatively good at evaluating temperament overall (ie, knowing when I'm going to be over my head ), and I'm good at breaking complicated behaviors (like service dog tasks) down into trainable steps)- anything outside of those areas, I tend to refer off to mroe experienced folks. I do almost NO paid work- and most of the paid 'training' work I'm doing is related to service dog stuff where it's as much 'administrative'- there are other service dog trainers in the area with lots of experience to whom I'll refer a lot of people, but I tend not to refer psychiatric service dog clients because I've not yet found another trainer in thsi area who really understands psychiatric disabilities enough that I feel they can really work with folks suffering frmo them- there are some issues unique to PSD handlers that make them different than your average hearing dog user or mobility dog user.)

At the same time? I get highly disturbed when I find people billing themselves as pros with less experience than me- especially the oens who are willing to work with ANYTHING! It's scary, it's asking to get bit, and it's just wrong, because you can seriously screw up someone's dog- especially with some of the techniques that a certain Show That Shall Not Be Named advocates for issues like aggression.

Oh, and don't get me STARTED on some of the very UNPROFESSIONal service dog trainers out there. They're con artists taking advantage of the disabled.

Cait  

I call it controlling the environment and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. Our friend with the Great Pyrenees used to have a female GSD who did not like males, especially if they got too close or made a sudden move. She was 90 lbs of "I'm going to rip your head off and crap down your neck." But she was sweet on our friend. So, she managed the dog's environment, even if that meant putting her outside for a while, or changing where people are going to meet, etc.
 
I think we can use the dog's drive at times to achieve the result intended. I feed bits of meat to Shadow by hand. Once, the cat interefered to play with the lace on my slipper. Shadow went after her. I didn't even get up. I called his name and sit and he came back to me and sat. Because his desire for steak outweighed his desire to correct the kitty for interfering. Some might call that food agression or resource guarding. But it kept him from chasing after the kitty. Other times, if I think she is going to interfere, I will put her into a room until we're done eating. After that, he's ready for a nap and she can go bouncing off the walls of the house and it won't affect him.
 
I think there's some validity to the point of picking and choosing your battles. He who shall remain nameless since his name inspires people here to call each other names structures his meal times. He controls the environment, which controls the reaction of the dogs, who act on instinct, mostly.

Not to hijack, but the issue of "invisible disabilities" is one that some of my clients struggle with.  One lady suffers from PTSD, severe depression, and ADHD, and possibly a personality disorder.  This is a severe and disabling situation for her, but she has managed to train her own dog, and advocates for herself pretty well.  She went step by step, got the CGC, and letters from her therapist and MD, and the housing dept. of her community.  When she is questioned about access, she has a whole array of materials to show - and she offers to come back and speak to the business's staff about ADA and the use of service animals for ID's!!!  It has given her a "mission", and while she still struggles, her depression is  not as severe and she has done better in the community in a social context as well.  Sadly, she still gets accused of trying to get her "pet" into restaurants and other public places.  Thankfully, she is undaunted, and continues to educate others.
You are certainly right about the complex issues these folks face, not the least of which, despite that lady's success, is being unable to advocate for themselves.  (But, that's where I come in, hopefully. [])