Just a general rant on aggression

    • Gold Top Dog

    Just a general rant on aggression

    I was re-reading a section of "The Culture Clash", as I often do, and here's what Jean Donaldson has to say about biting dogs, in a nutshell:
    "When dealing with adult dogs there are three options.  You can treat the problem, manage the problem, or execute the dog.  I say execute rather than euthanize because a biting dog is not suffering and does not need or want a merciful death.  He is killed because of transgressions he has made against humans.  That's what an execution is for.  The tragic part is that the dog, in most cases, is behaving normally, for a dog.  Socialization and anti-agression exercises were simply either omitted or insufficient." 
    She goes on to explain the nature of management (keep the dog out of triggering situations) and treatment (efforts to change the dog's behavior by tackling the underlying causes).  But, she also goes on to say that many owners "find they haven't the patience or inclination to put this amount of effort into a dog that bites".  She talks about owners who "send the dog to the country" or "a farm" and says it's the option chosen by owners who "don't know how, or can't be bothered to treat but feel too guilty to execute their pet" and "clean up the mess they made by failing to do the prevention exercises". 

    Perhaps that's a little too strong an indictment of owners, who, sadly believe that they can just go out and get a dog and all will be well.  After all, they grew up with Lassie on the tube, and think that's how normal dogs behave...
    But, while I think that owners who "inherit" a problem by adopting a dog certainly don't deserve the same ire, they, too, are in a position to become educated before making a classic mistake, like taking a cowering, frightened mushball of a dog home to "save it", or thinking that the little Pit they just took in will like other dogs eventually, or adopting the aloof dog who never even glances their way because they just had to have a dog with those great blue Husky eyes, etc.
    At the risk of being trashed, I will say that not all dogs should be saved.  Many are so damaged that they won't ever be safe in ordinary pet homes, and frequently, the pet owners won't be safe either.
    Anyone who is looking to purchase or adopt a dog, IMHO, has an obligation to become educated!!!!
    Before you go off to the shelter, read Sue Sternberg's "Successful Dog Adoptions".  You may not like some of what you read, but you will at least get straightforward information that could save you lots of headaches later.  And, there are books that will tell you what characteristics each breed, or breed group displays.  That will save you from taking home the cute little Australian Cattle Dog if you are a "soft" owner with three children under the age of 8, or the little pet store Bichon if you hope to keep your white carpets white, not yellow.
    Before you adopt or buy, find out where your dog comes from - if the "breeder" is breeding twenty litters a year, or is breeding 5 different breeds, or has an address in Missouri or Kansas, or Lancaster County, PA, and you can't verify that they aren't a puppy mill, go elsewhere. Start by checking the breeder referral listings at the registries, like AKC or UKC.  Don't buy "designer dogs" - even if someone really IS trying to create a new breed, it's much like buying the newest model year of a car - the bugs haven't been worked out yet! Let someone else part with $2000 for a dog and incur the hefty vet bills.
     Find out if the parents of your pup are titled, health tested, or actually do the work for which they were bred.  Look up the registered names on the OFA, PennHip, or CERF websites.  And, never, ever, ever, buy from a pet store - all puppies there are from puppy mills.  Chances are that they were shipped early (before age of 8 wks) or right during a fear period, and they were cage raised, and no early socialization work took place at the breeder's.  This makes them have housebreaking problems, and behavioral problems, such as low bite inhibition.  Do not fall for "I just wanted to rescue the poor thing."  Every time someone buys a pet store pup, or buys from an online unscrupulous breeder, they are perpetuating the problem, more puppies suffer, more bitches spend their entire lives in cages sitting in their own excrement, and the pet store owners laugh and ride all the way to the bank on the backs of those suffering dogs...
    None of those mills are paying the least bit of attention to temperament as they breed.  If they can tempt you with the cuteness of a Puggle or a Cavachon, they don't care if the thing has the worst attributes of both breeds so long as you open your wallet when you see its cute little face.
    [sm=banghead002.gif]
    Doing all this may not always prevent aggression, but you will, at least, be able to avoid the most common causes.  Poor genetics, poor socialization, and poor, or harsh, training.  Off my soapbox now...

    • Gold Top Dog
    Well said.
     
    I want to add something about pet store pups.  My family bought two of them over the years.  Both ended up with rare diseases and had to be PTS.  There was no breeder to consult with, no one to share our grief with and even though we worked hard to keep our dogs healthy the end result was tragedy.  Please keep this in mind as well.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Before you go off to the shelter, read Sue Sternberg's "Successful Dog Adoptions". You may not like some of what you read, but you will at least get straightforward information that could save you lots of headaches later.

     
    This is so true.  When I look back at the first time I saw Sassy at the shelter, there were huge warning signs that she hadn't been socialized and had fear aggression.  I just thought she was "sweet and timid" though and it tugged at my heart.  I don't regret bringing her home, but I wish I'd at least known what to expect and gotten educated earlier.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I say execute rather than euthanize because a biting dog is not suffering and does not need or want a merciful death.


    He's not suffering physically, but I think a lot of them if not all of them are suffering mentally.  They are acting the way they do because they are afraid, confused, anxious. . .and a lot of the time it's a constant mindset for them. 
     
    And, I think if it cannot be worked out and it took an enormous amount of commitment from me with Willow, time, patience, etc.  I didn't work full time the first year I had her, not everyone can devote this kind of time. Our lifestyle allowed it, but I can see where people wouldn't be able to always do this. 

    Anyway, I do think that if that is their decision that they are putting the dog out of suffering.  They are suffering mentally.  Willow still does to some degree.
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    Everything you say is true...  But, sometimes, even after doing research, and even after trying to be responsible, you get something other than what you bargained for.  We rescued from a reputable rescue group that fosters their dogs first, has an extensive application process including reference checks and home vists...  We knew exactly what we would need to do for the kind of dog we were told we were getting - and then, ended up, for whatever reason, with something entirely different!  I can't blame anyone - obviously the rescue got the breed mix wrong and as he entered adolescence (a few months after we got him) he became a lot pushier and started exhibiting aggression.
     
    All that being said - I am sure that is not the usual case.  It is really important to educate yourself BEFORE you adopt because 9 times out of 10 this will probably prevent a bad match...  But - when something you hadn't planned on comes along - a person can end up with a problem they are not ready to deal with, through little fault of their own...
     
    However, I understand Jean Donaldson's frustration (which is how I read the quite above) because it is true that many people view aggression as this insurmountable problem, the one thing that they aren't willing to try to work on because it is "unforgivable" - that is tough, because like other problems, aggression can often be treated or managed.  But, I find it harder to judge people who are less willing to work with a dog with aggression issues because it  is riskier than other problems, and it is a tougher call to put yourself and potentially others in situations that might put them at risk, because of an aggressive dog, than it is to spend time, money and effort dealing with another type of problem...  As someone who is dealing with a dog with some aggressive tendencies - I am taking the management and treatment approach, but while I hope others do the same, and I am very much opposed to people getting a dog and then giving up on him or her because they are lazy and unwilling to work with the dog, aggression is an area where I cut people a little more slack.  It is a hard and very scary problem to have...
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think a lot of people are often too quick to label dogs as "aggressive".  Most dog-bites seem to be defensive fear-motivated actions, or normal dog behavior that is totally mis-interpreted by humans. Puppies play-bite and play-growl at humans and end up labeled "aggressive" at age 3 months. Your dog growls and snaps at a rude overly friendly dog, you're appalled and label your dog "aggressive". An incredible number of dogs are labeled as "aggressive" due to resource guarding of food, bed, treats; this is a very treatable and preventable problem. Other dogs are so terrified by their so-called "training" that they resort to "bite first just in case" behavior.
    Think about when dogs bite humans: kids get bitten a lot, mostly because dogs tend to be scared of children and their erratic behavior. People get bitten when they grab their dog's collar- dog thinks he's being attacked. People get bitten when they try to move the dog off the bed or put the bone away-- resource guarding, pure and simple.
    As to dog-dog aggression, well, it's really not a normal canine behavior for adult dogs to go around interacting with strange dogs. Your best bet is to train your dog to ignore strange dogs from day one, and arrange play dates with dogs your dog knows and likes. What do we teach children from an early age? don't talk to strangers. Then we strangely expect our dogs to want to play with each and every stranger they encounter.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't write this to be disagreeable, and I realize that there are a lot of goofy, uneducated people who have dogs and who also read this site, but hey, what about a little "good for you" once in a blue moon to the owners who are seriously trying? How about sharing some positive "rehab" stories?
     
    Sometimes, at this site (versus another one that I'm a member of elsewhere) I feel like I get  bombarded with negativity about having a difficult dog, and somedays it's enough to nearly break me. 
     
    I love this board and I love what you all say, but there are times when I feel so beat over the head with reminders of how difficult and maybe even impossible my dog is--both physically and emotionally (the dog, that is)--that I have to step away from this site for a bit to distance myself and to keep myself moving forward. 
     
    I'm a worrier by nature and I have used this site, and the posts, as a measuring stick as I continue to work with my dog. I feel like I'm doing everything I can, within my power, to work wth him AND to also ensure everyone's safety. And I'm doing my best to cover him medically, too, so all of my bases are covered. Overall, I think he's a great dog, and I'm willing to put in the time and energy to helping him the best that I can while I manage his situations.
     
    On a long Monday, a happy-ending story would feel sooo good.
     
    Thanks,
    Nancy
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Nancy - I think that you, and me, and everyone else who is doing the best they can to treat and manage a more difficult dog, and to keep everyone, dog and human, healthy, safe and happy...  is the happy ending story!!  Don't be discouraged!  These dogs are getting a chance, where odds are, had they landed elsewhere, you can bet most families wouldn't put in the time, effort, love and heartache it takes with a tougher dog.  You are doing the best you can and you are making strides...  that is important - don't forget it!
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    Sometimes I feel the same way Nancy, so from me to you [sm=angel.gif] and hugs.  It's rough sometimes and unless you walked into it knowing what to expect and how much you'd need to learn just to feel comfortable, then it can be quite a surprise.  I'm super proud of what we've been able to achieve with Sassy and just the fact that we cared enough to not give up.  I know you must feel the same way...so give yourself a big pat on the back for your commitment and dedication!
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    On a long Monday, a happy-ending story would feel sooo good.


    I'M A HAPPY ENDING STORY, NANCY. . .OXOXOXO Willow
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    I'm currently working with the shelter I volunteer at to create some kind of "So you want to adopt a dog..." class because every time I come into contact with potential adopters while I'm there I wind up having to give an impromptu lecture on really really basic canine behavior and breeds.
     
    On Saturday, I was bringing one of our residents (a huge purebred weimeraner) back into the kennel when I was stopped by some potential adopters because, well, I was walking a gorgeous weimeraner. They asked me about him and I had to be honest about his behavior. He's got a lot of energy, despite being 5 years old, and has had very little training. He's also mouthy, but not a biter because we don't put known biters on the adoption floor. I experienced his mouthy tendancies and they are purely the result of this dog not being taught bite inhibition at a young age. So, I told the lady, well, he's mouthy but he's not aggressive that I've seen, and he loves other dogs. She asked about what "mouthy" means and I said that he will put his mouth on you to communicate, but he doesn't chomp down. This lady recoiled in horror as if I was standing there handling Cujo because to her, a dog who put its mouth on you = aggressive dog. I tried to explain that no, you can teach him not to do that, it's just that naturally dogs, because they don't have hands, will use their mouths to communicate and this dog was never taught to not do that with humans. She just stood there staring at me like "does not compute...does not compute" and then walked away. Poor Willie the Weimeraner! So misunderstood.
     
    I'm glad that someone who wasn't able to understand these things didn't adopt him anyway just because he's so amazing looking, because I get the impression that's the fate of a lot of weims--people get them because of their looks and then have no idea what they're getting into with such a high energy dog. But I really wish people would educate themselves before even going to the shelter.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Spiritdogs, you have a deep understanding and say important things here (and in other areas of the forum).  Also, mudpuppy brought up some important issues with these dogs often called "aggressive". 
     
    Growing up we had a dog that fits this category.  At the time there wasn't a leash law so he was loose.  After he nipped a kid on the street (whom I detested- he was a real trouble maker) the dog had to be tied.  He was not friendly to strangers, but knew all of my friends and family that was welcome at the home.  When a salesman -  This guy pushed the door open,  and the dog snarled like he was about to take his head off.  Never saw that dog so mad!  It worked like a charm,  and the guy was gone.  Next day we find out that he forced his way into my neighbors house.  The guy was bad news and the dog knew it.
     
    My mother had a hard time with complaints from neighbors and she was looking for  a new home for him. We had two separate families over to take him and mom could not do it.  We loved the dog with the "aggression" problem.  He was a protective pet.  When I think back on it, there wasn't anything wrong with him but he seemed to know who had something wrong with them!!
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

    I think a lot of people are often too quick to label dogs as "aggressive".  Most dog-bites seem to be defensive fear-motivated actions, or normal dog behavior that is totally mis-interpreted by humans. Puppies play-bite and play-growl at humans and end up labeled "aggressive" at age 3 months. Your dog growls and snaps at a rude overly friendly dog, you're appalled and label your dog "aggressive". An incredible number of dogs are labeled as "aggressive" due to resource guarding of food, bed, treats; this is a very treatable and preventable problem. Other dogs are so terrified by their so-called "training" that they resort to "bite first just in case" behavior.
    Think about when dogs bite humans: kids get bitten a lot, mostly because dogs tend to be scared of children and their erratic behavior. People get bitten when they grab their dog's collar- dog thinks he's being attacked. People get bitten when they try to move the dog off the bed or put the bone away-- resource guarding, pure and simple.
    As to dog-dog aggression, well, it's really not a normal canine behavior for adult dogs to go around interacting with strange dogs. Your best bet is to train your dog to ignore strange dogs from day one, and arrange play dates with dogs your dog knows and likes. What do we teach children from an early age? don't talk to strangers. Then we strangely expect our dogs to want to play with each and every stranger they encounter.


    Practicing that mind reading again, right?????[8|]
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    Is it being implied here that managing a difficult adult dog that has real aggression issues be they be from being taken from mom too soon, tied to a tree for 2 years or just poor breeding, are we grouping that with puppy biting and minor issues??? 
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't mean to just jump in, but good point, willowchow. I can't tell. What I know is that when I opened up (a lot, for me) and talked about Murphy and my niece, I was a wreck. I got very sensitive and very particular because I felt like everyone had something to say to me. Not that I don't appreciate that--I got what I "asked for" by posting, but if it weren't for a few of the positive posts--the "you can do it" ones--I don't know what I would have done. All I heard, over and over, was the "now you know" posts. And yes, I did know.

    Anyway, I can't tell what this string of posts is about. I can't. And I have a background in writing. I still can't. I think it's probably something more inclusive than I know about. I haven't been here long and I don't have a lot to offer, so there is that . . . [:)]

    But I will say this--I'm coming around to enjoying Murphy again after The Incident. It's taken some time. We're not really taught/socialized ourselves to open up to "aggressive dogs" and for my family, in particular, it's especially true. I've struggled, over the past couple of months, with even wanting Murphy because my feelings about him went on a roller coaster ride. I'm now starting to mellow out and things are turning around--for him and inside me about him.

    Whew.