Just a general rant on aggression

I wouldn't take it to heart so much Nancy.  If I said anything to offend you in my responses about your neice I apologize.  I however am not just passing judgement like some know-it-all who read a few books.  I actually live with the problem everyday.  Anyone, can judge, make lists and say to read books.  I find it fascinating how some people here who brag about having perfect dogs can be so judgemental over people who have dogs with problems.  What exactly do they know about living with a dog with aggression?? 

I also don't understand what they are getting at here, maybe it's just so some people can pat other people who agree with them on the back.  It doesn't make either one of them right, just remember that.

Thanks, Willowchow. You didn't offend--I was incredibly stressed and hoped I didn't offend you! BTW, my niece looks really really good. She's healed up and isn't showing--there's a teeny tiny little white line above her lip, but that's even healing. I am so glad about that--but my sister and I aren't talking at all and I have only seen this (how she looks) through high-resolution photos.
 
Still . . .
 
And this Friday the "positive" behaviorist comes to my house to help me take him to the next level--whatever that might be. Maybe I need to head to the next level. [] Maybe he'll tell me that!
 
I'll let you know how it goes. And, if you have any suggestions for what I can say/do, I could use a few! I'm paying for an hour, after all.

Although my dog was aggressive, he never broke skin on anyone.  I do think that would be the limit.  It was painful enough to feel like the potential was there to have him removed to a safer area(editing in; /finding someone else to adopt him)  or put to sleep...

He was a watch dog type, and he obeyed to stop.  I do not know if it is possible to train a dog that instinctually defends his home to stop doing that.  We restrained him and put him in separate area when there was the need to protect company. 

We loved that dog.  And we kept him until he was old.  I do not think that this would be the case if he ever visciously attacked a neighbor or family.  If someone was trespassing and endangering our family, that would be a whole different story.  The dog was doing a good job basically.

no willowchow, some dogs do behave aggressively. Most aggressive behavior can be prevented or stopped in its tracks at the first sign, but if you get a rescue dog, or some dogs are just born that way, well, all you can do is work with what you have.
I don't like labeling dogs as 'aggressive'. Certain behaviors are 'aggressive'. A dog is just a dog, and any dog can and will engage in "aggressive behaviors" under certain circumstances particular to each dog.
 
I don't know if I have a success story- dog was mostly managed, not cured-- a rescue dog, very nasty resource guarding behavior, fear biting of strangers, prey-stalking behavior of children that was frankly terrifying, no tolerance of strange dogs. Cured the resource guarding, managed the other behaviors, no one was injured or killed by the dog, she was quite fun to be around after much work, had a pretty nice quality of life and seemed happy. Died of natural causes.

As the owner of a dog with aggression issues, I thought I'd pipe in.  I have had dogs for years, and Gandolf is the only one that I would label as "aggressive." 
 
I think a lot of humans put dogs in two categories:  non-aggressive and aggressive - I did so to an extent before we owned Gandolf -  but really all dogs have behaviors that are potentially dangerous, some are just more prone to exhibit those behaviors.  And, as discussed, most of those that are more prone have probably had poor breeding, lack of proper socialization, suffered abuse/neglect, etc.
 
And I think that's one of the important lessons for humans who have dogs - all dogs can bite - and will, given the right (or wrong) set of circumstances.  Like the story with the Weimeraner and the woman who was horrified that he was mouthy, I've had humans look at me in utter disbelief that I live with a dog who has bitten and damaged other dogs and humans.
 
But it ain't an easy road living with G. - he is a beautiful, active, big dog who can (and has) inflicted damage on others.  It's stressful, and time consuming, and you must be committed.  We have worked tirelessly to "cure" the underlying causes, but frankly, management is mostly what we do.  And as others here know, I've been close to throwing the towel in myself.  As long as all can be safe, he will remain, and hopefully pass on from natural causes. 

I've read this, too, and while I agree that it's sad, I think there are so many forces at work that contribute to this. And it doesn't start with the dog owner.

There are far too many shelters that lie about breed to make a dog more adoptable (ever notice how some shelters have nothing but "lab mixes?"), or that lie about temperament, or that have no idea about temperament but promise "good with kids/dogs/cats/whatever" despite little info in order to make them more adoptable.

But it's not the shelters' fault alone -- so many are overrun with dogs and have few resources in terms of time, money, volunteers, knowledgeable staff, etc., to the point where half the time, they're just moving masses of bodies around because it's the best they can do.

Then there's the media, with far too many movie and TV portrayals of dogs as perfect, loyal companions with no flaws short of the "cute" ones. And kids movies with breeds that are not kid friendly -- every time they rerelease 101 dalmations, guess what ends up overflowing the shelters?

I'm looking forward to seeing the Marley movie because if it's anything like the book, at least it will be an honest portrayal of what dog ownership is really like!

There are too many "trainers" with few or no qualifications, who do more harm than good, or who don't have the depth of knowlege to help with serious problems. One of my biggest pet peeves is the wide array of clicker trainers I know who regularly tell people to put their dogs down because they are "not trainable," when in truth, the problem is that the trainer lacks the ability to deal with anything more difficult than a happy lab. If I'm a cab driver, I make it a point of knowing more than one way to get to the airport -- so why don't trainers take the time to learn different training methods so they have the tools to train dogs with a wide variety of problems?

A galpal once called a dozen trainers in my area to ask for help with her overactive JR. Six of the trainers said they "don't do Jacks" and two told her to put the dog to sleep WITHOUT EVER MEETING IT OR HER IN PERSON, AND DESPITE NO AGGRESSION ISSUES. There are WAY too many quack trainers out there, so even people who seek help with their dogs often give up in despair.

And then there's the fact that often, the best way to fix a problem with a dog is the way that seems most counter intuitive. How many people who have a dog who growls at visitors when they come in respond by putting the dog away whenever people come over? It doesn't at first glance seem logical to take a dog around people when the dog lacks social skills, yet this is often the only way to fix the problem.

FYI, Sue Sternberg is a Goddess, but much of what she says about researching breeds before adopting is useless when adopting a mix because it's a given that shelters rarely know or will tell you what you're getting.

Finally, you have the fact that dog training has only become mainstream in the last decade or two -- so you have several generations of people still getting dogs who had dogs their whole lives and never heard of trainers except for the rich and famous. It's tough to convince these people that they need a trainer, when they spent 40 years swatting a dog with a newspaper if it misbehaved, or pushing it's head into its pool as part of house breaking. Changing longstanding attitudes is time consuming and difficult, and often takes years to do.

On the plus side, things HAVE been changing. Whether you like CM or hate him, he has put dog training on the map and in the mainstream media, so at least people are aware that this is an option. The Animal Planet channel has also gained market share steadily over the past few years, which raises awareness and helps people to understand that there ARE options, even for difficult dogs.

It's a process...but I like to believe it's getting better.

Jan

In my area, the "out in the middle of the pet store" training classes have been a major force for good. People who would never even have thought dogs need to be trained stop by for some cheap kibble, and see a bunch of normal folks with normal dogs taking a training class, and they see it's not just for people who want to compete or have dogs with really serious behavioral problems.

How many people who have a dog who growls at visitors when they come in respond by putting the dog away whenever people come over? It doesn't at first glance seem logical to take a dog around people when the dog lacks social skills, yet this is often the only way to fix the problem.

 
I think that sometimes that is the best way to keep people from getting bit though.  It needs to be weighed out on an individual basis.  You need to know who you are having over and whether that sitch will actually be amenable.  I believe that a lot of the tougher cases are going to always be managed and not actually a complete trusted fix. 

Thank you, JessiesGirl. Murphy and I are in another obedience class and trying out a different theory and it seems to resonate very well with him.
 
Thank you for writing yet again a much needed POSITIVE post. Loved it!

I believe that a lot of the tougher cases are going to always be managed and not actually a complete trusted fix.

 
Absolutely agree.  What visitor is going to want to be the one to take that kind of a chance.  And, why is it so important that my dog interact with my company?  They are there to see me. 

I think that sometimes that is the best way to keep people from getting bit though.

Agreed. But I always believe you start by trying to fix the problem, assuming you have a handler who's experienced enough (or willing to become experienced enough) to do this without endangering anyone. Managing a problem, to me, is a last resort. I think too many trainers are far too quick to teach dog owners to work around problems that could be addressed and solved, rather than putting the time and work in to fix the problems.

And yes, I know that not every problem can be fixed. But I've seen a LOT of dogs that were deemed "impossible" by others that are now well socialized, well mannered, and able to function without being "worked around" -- in fact, my Jessie is one of these dogs. So I'm a big believer in not setting limitations up front. When you put a box of your expectations around a person or a dog, you've already decided that the person or dog can never be more than that box, never grow bigger than that box...and you pretty much ensure they never will.

Assuming you have an owner who is capable of working safely, I believe it's best to start out by giving the dog every opportunity to amaze and delight you. Dogs are smarter than we realize, and many can learn far more than we would suspect, if we're willing to put the work in.

You can always go back to managing the problem later if you can't cure it.

Yes, safety must come first. But there are a lot of safe ways to work on problems without just avoiding the situation.

Jan

There have been many times when Willow has impressed me and I know she's come a long way.  However, I would never kid myself into thinking she will ever be "well socialized."  I choose to avoid her being in certain situations not because I don't want to put the time in and work in.  But, I cannot say that she would ever be 100% reliable in any situation.  She can be fine one minute, not the next. 

Examples---We do let her around our cousins who come over pretty often.  She's been great around them most of the time and they are not afraid of her.  One day, she growled aggressively at one of them out of nowhere. 

She has taken a treat from more than one person and then growled at them when the cookies were gone. 

She's got so many things that make her nervous and afraid that there is not way I could explain all of them without forgetting any to someone so that they wouldn't accidentally do something to freak her out. 

I don't want her to make a mistake and I know if I tested fate too many times she would. 

I'm talking about biting aggression here not a dog that jumps up on people or barks.
 
I have accepted the dog I have and work within her capabilities and comfort levels.  I will not try to make her into something she's not.

And, why is it so important that my dog interact with my company? 

To you, it might not be that important at all. And that's okay. To someone else, it might be very important. And that's okay, too. I think we all work hardest with our dogs at what's most important to us.

My dog has bad table manners (after dinner, she takes the napkin off my lap and eats it...and while she doesn't exactly beg, she does sorta stare at people and their food very sadly until they are moved to give her table scraps). I suppose I could fix this if I needed to badly enough. If her life depended on it, I could fix it, or if it was a huge problem that was somehow making my life unliveable. But to be honest, it's not a top priority for me. So my dog continues to eat napkins.

I needed my dog to be functional around children, or at least not eat them. I have a niece and nephews who I love and want to have in my home from time to time, so her eating children wasn't going to work for me. We did an ENORMOUS amount of work to make this happen. We still do, and we will continue to do so for the rest of Jessie's life, I imagine. And while it was a long, hard process, I now have a dog who loves my niece and nephews (and select kids of friends, or from dog class or the neighborhood) and tolerates other kids.

I think that those of us who have difficult dogs prioritize what we absolutely NEED, and that's where we tend to focus our energies, accepting that we might not get some things we'd LIKE, but if we get what we need, we'll make the rest work. We don't get it perfect, but we get it good enough that we can all be happy.

<>

I think if this was your top priority, you would find ways to work with this. For instance, dog with muzzle, or dog tethered, working with treats, clicker, reconditioning exercises, whatever works for you. I've gone to people's homes to act as a "friendly stranger," and at our dog school, we have six or eight people who take turns being "visitors" to help dogs work through this type of issue. People at our dog classes also volunteer to do meet and greets with dogs with aggression issues. We monitor and manage the situation, yet are constantly working with the dog/handler so they have a chance to practice socializing in a safe setting.

I have a galpal in Chicago who belongs to a totally informal dog group from one of the parks and they all do the same thing, work with each other, practice being friendly strangers for the dogs that have issues with fear or aggression, help each other by providing people to practice on. Over time, dogs are often reconditioned, so by the time you're "practicing" on friends, the dog has already gotten the routine down and is no longer a threat.

I'm not saying every dog problem can be fixed...but I always hate to hear people give up on something that is very important to THEM without first trying every possible avenue.

The more I train, the more I realize that there are just so many avenues to try, so many training methods, so many possibilities. I've seen miracles happen, and quite honestly, my dog is one of them. I also believe my dog could be even better, but I've reached a point where I'm willing to work around certain things because it's easier than putting in massive amounts of time for something that's not my top priority.

And that doesn't mean we have to explore every possibility or solve every problem. I think there's a work/benefit ratio we have to look at...i.e. if I put in two years of constant work, I can solve XYZ problem, but would I be happier working around XYZ problem, which really isn't life or death for me, and using my two years doing something more important?

All dogs don't have to be Lassie. But I think it's always a good idea to be aware that there are a lot of choices out there before you have to say, "My dog can't get better at this," if "this" is something that's critically important to you.

Jan

I'm sorry but if your trying to convince me that your dog who would "eat" the kids is now 100% reliable with them because you worked an enormous amount with her, sorry, that's not going to happen.  You are still taking a risk, the dog is an animal and they will suddenly do something unexpected, training or not. 
 

We don't get it perfect, but we get it good enough that we can all be happy. 

 
Good enough, is not good enough for me when it could mean my dogs life because she bit or injured someone.

You can always go back to managing the problem later if you can't cure it.

Yes, safety must come first. But there are a lot of safe ways to work on problems without just avoiding the situation.

 
I am kind of basic in training my pups and I think that if you are a responsible owner you do know the dog that you raised and also you need to know your company. and what they are like ...and take it from there.   
 
Many people have behavioral things that are not conducive to any kind of pets nevermind the one that seems like it may bite them! 
 
The dog that I had who one may call "aggressive" was a fine dog for friends and family.  He would pick out certain strangers that usually did have something wrong with them, and and did  the "bad dog things"...LOL,  He was just a good watch dog.   He was large, black fuz ball, that looked like an Irish wolfhound... but was a mix of God knows what! 
 
One of my father's friends was over and approaching one of the out buildings, without anyone with him, and the dog tugged his coat to see his face and see who he was, and the dog growled and barked.  The guy said something in Italian to the dog, and the dog just stopped, and walked away...no problems!!! 
 
I know that dog was very intelligent.  He just wanted to do his job.  To give him to another family for adoption would have been tragic for him ...and us!