CM and Fear

The way Cesar worked with Kane reminded me a lot of how we used to work with horses who were fearful. I remember when the buggy got put into the corner of the riding arena for the winter. Most of the horses kind of took a step back - looked - and were on their way after deciding there was no threat. Gordon decided it was a horse eating monster and fled the scene with a new rider in tow. The instructor tried to get her to work with Gordon, but she was as scared as Gordon! So I swapped my horse with hers and we started working him around the arena. He would still shy at that corner, so in all the corners EXCEPT the buggy corner we started asking Gordon to do the exercise he despised most in the entire world - flying lead changes. After cantering just a couple circuits of the arena, he figured out pretty quick that flying lead changes were way worse than any horse-eating monster. The buggy corner was now the "safe" place because he didn't have to do any "work" there. We forced him to confront his irrational fear, and also gave him an "aversive" of sorts that discouraged him from trying to avoid that fear.

I just want to expand on my last post by saying, I still think that it's always wise and humane to try to be sympathetic to the dog's point of view... an ungrounded fear is still a valid emotion. You try to see things through your dog's eyes but sometimes either you can't get to the real "why" - or the answer is "just because" - and you have to move on anyway.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl
The way Cesar worked with Kane reminded me a lot of how we used to work with horses who were fearful.

I learned how to work with fearful and insecure dogs (reasonable fear or not) through my work with ex-race horses. Most of what I use today, came from dealing with these huge flight-over-fight prey animals, with which you cannot use muscle alone in order to get them to move forward. They have to trust your judgement in certain circumstances and trust you will not bring them to harm. You have to use your brain over your brawn when working with them.

Ever see the Disney movie "The Tattooed Police Horse? []

I am also reminded of my work with horses when I watch Cesar. Dogs are not horses, but what I learned about my own attitude, demeanor, confidence, body language, touch and "energy" - through my work with horses, is where I formed my original handling methods when working with fearful (reasonable or not) dogs, not from just working with dogs or watching Cesar's techniques alone.

And yet, apparently it's a mistake to compare species.

What I like about you, Angelique, is that you can learn from surprising sources and find ways to apply that to your work with dogs. I say that trying to find the nests of tiny little wild birds at the end of the season when they're especially crafty and wary has taught me a lot about animal behaviour, and I can often apply what I learnt in the field with teensy, wary birds to domestic dogs. Sounds insane, maybe, but in my experience, a lot of animal behaviour is universal. For example, if a tiny bird sees you looking at them, there's no way they're going to their nest. Similarly, when the hare gets nervous, the best I can do is look away from him. And when my dog gets nervous, I don't make eye contact and pretend like I don't notice her. Works with tiny wild birds, a semi-tame hare, and a thoroughly domestic dog. How handy! []

DPU, I've already done my best to answer your questions. I don't get CMs shows over here, and I never saw all the followups, so I don't feel I can answer you. When I read about it in CM's book, though, I thought I would do the same thing. I think the potential danger of the dog slipping on the floor and hurting himself is a good point, but probably unlikely. However, I don't know danes. I also don't know Kane, so I wouldn't know if he was prone to panic. I absolutely would not do it that way if I thought there was a chance the dog would panic. Panicked animals don't learn anything, IMO, and I think it can damage trust, as well as being physically dangerous to the animal. I don't think panicked animals feel pain much.

I would use this method if the following conditions were met:
The dog was otherwise confident and emotionally balanced, esepcially not generally fearful
The relationship between dog and handler was strong and trusting
The dog was not strong enough to overpower the handler
The dog NEVER reacted to fear with blind aggression or aggression towards people
There was minimal chance the dog would panic'

That's the best I can do, because every situation is different, and fear, I think, has to be handled prudently. It's a very powerful emotion. Plus, I've never had to do this myself. My dog is pathologically terrified of fireworks and thunder, but that's a fear that is easier managed than vanquished.

How's Petro's foot?

Corvus, you are great and are a big help.  Nothing more was expected from you to address my question.

Jones, thank you for some clarity.  In your previous post you have already stated that your preference would have been to a gradual desensitization approach.  All 3 post were excellent and On Topic and I wish the other would have followed your lead.  I did sense a qualification in the 2nd post because of what you were given to view.  Adding your 3rd post gave a clear answer.  Thank you again.  And what I attempted to do was to change (expand on) the givens, add my experience with identifying fear, the breed characteristics, mom's reactions, safety to both human and dog.  I have read a lot of your posts on the forum and you are respected by me.  The angle that I am looking at this video is from a common Joe perspective and I am trying to inform that person, myself included.  The video is fine but needs to be qualified because by itself it can cause harm.

By your first statement, I take it you do not consider yourself as being knowledgeable with CM's philosophies, methods and ways.  Your response was the closest to addressing my question.   

I don't have certainty because I did not reread my posts, but I did not ask for advice about my home situation.  I did take advice for my home situation.  I alone own my home situation.  I also did not ask to be judged.  The subject was discussing/critiquing the video.  I shared my past experience and current situation to jolt some reality into why I started this thread in the 1st place.  This has been a disappointment.

Angelique, with respect, you only answered the first part of my question and that is ok.  I want no more.

In the shiny floor video that is referenced in espencer's thread, there is no disclaimer or qualification presented.  It needs to be qualified.

Upon arriving home from work today, Petro was with the other Danes to greet me.  I don't know if he went upstairs and came down on his own or just stayed on the main floor all day.  Last night he slept in the living but after his outside time 1st thing this morning, he went upstairs.  Prior to leaving for work he gets another outside time and after that I do not know if he went upstairs or not.  Now that I think about it, I have not seen him go in the basement in over a year time. Oh yeah, I get to take off the bandage tomorrow so I'll see if the bandage was giving him more confidence when he comes down the stairs.

ORIGINAL: corvus

And yet, apparently it's a mistake to compare species.

Only in certain respects. []
 
Each species has it's own form of communication or "language". Each species has it's own psychology. Even each gender has it's own psychology. And then each individual, too. IMO
 
Different groups of the same species (Orcas for instance) even have their own "cultural" practices and hunting techiques which are handed down through the generations and taught to the young by their elders.

Yet, all animals have certain things in common, all mammals have certain things in common, all canids have certain things in common, all birds have certain things in common...so to me, every animal I study still gives me little tidbits and pieces to the puzzle which is all a connected part of nature.

Your comments on the specific point of when "dominance" does not mean "leadership" through the studies of bird behavior, territorial displays, and breeding rights, did not have anything to do with dogs, but there was a definate lightbulb moment for me.

I will never forget that conversation.

ORIGINAL: corvus

What I like about you, Angelique, is that you can learn from surprising sources and find ways to apply that to your work with dogs. I say that trying to find the nests of tiny little wild birds at the end of the season when they're especially crafty and wary has taught me a lot about animal behaviour, and I can often apply what I learnt in the field with teensy, wary birds to domestic dogs. Sounds insane, maybe, but in my experience, a lot of animal behaviour is universal. For example, if a tiny bird sees you looking at them, there's no way they're going to their nest. Similarly, when the hare gets nervous, the best I can do is look away from him. And when my dog gets nervous, I don't make eye contact and pretend like I don't notice her. Works with tiny wild birds, a semi-tame hare, and a thoroughly domestic dog. How handy! []

I really love and appreciate your fascination for nature, even the tiniest details of the birds you study.

I learned how to move around my hens in order to put them at ease by not moving quietly, like I was in a predatory mode. If I switched to a shooing away mode, it put them at ease.

As a kid I was barely ever home. Always out in nature with a dog or with my nose stuck in an animal book on rainy days.

Ever lay on the ground and watch a slug eat? Ever get so close you can actually hear them chewing?

Do you have slugs in Australia? []

Okay, enough of my OT ramblings...

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: DPU

It is such a simple question to respond to that still has not been answered.  There is no ramification to a IMO response.  Given the information I have shared with you about my observations of the video, would you follow CM methods as shown in the video and if so why would you ignore the information I provided. 

Please answer the question.

Please answer the question.

I have a suggestion.  I think espencer should go to his thread where the videos are referenced and edit the post to include CM disclaimer since there is none in the video.  I also suggest he rescind his invitation to discuss any of the videos since this thread proved that the ones who are most knowledgeable with CM's philosophies, methods and ways are not open to discuss, critique, or reflect in the interest of public and pet safety.  It would also be a grand gesture of public responsibility for the moderator to remove all the videos from view.

Added:  I remind you each and every day, I am reminded of the potential danger by seeing my dog bandage and limping.

ORIGINAL: DPU


I have a suggestion.  I think espencer should go to his thread where the videos are referenced and edit the post to include CM disclaimer since there is none in the video.  I also suggest he rescind his invitation to discuss any of the videos since this thread proved that the ones who are most knowledgeable with CM's philosophies, methods and ways are not open to discuss, critique, or reflect in the interest of public and pet safety.  It would also be a grand gesture of public responsibility for the moderator to remove all the videos from view.

Added:  I remind you each and every day, I am reminded of the potential danger by seeing my dog bandage and limping.

I'm sorry that your dog was injured, and I believe I actually saw some people answer your question, it just seamed you kept asking the same question until you got the answer you wanted. As far as "the ones who are most knowledgeable with CM's philosophies, methods and ways are not open to discuss, critique, or reflect in the interest of public and pet safety." goes. I have know problem discussing it.

The problem with this type of forum communication is misreading the intent of the poster. And I am at fault for not being a good writer and expressing my thoughts clearly.  But know my intent is for the good of the dog.  The video is the basis of discussion.  Those that are the most knowledge of CM's philosophies, methods and way, know exactly what he is doing and I am absolutely sure whole heartedly agree with the way he handle it.  To achieve that understanding, it took a lot of time, studying, and acceptance.  But since they may also be heavily involved in the dog world and are part of this forum there are other influencing factors that would cause them to deviate specifically from CM's methods, given their knowledge of breed, the different opinions on the sources of fear, and their experience with safety and the potential risk.  Jones and corus, who I think are not the most knowledgeable of CM's philosophies, methods and way, stood up and added value to the video with respect to public and pet safety.   I attempted to drive home the seriousness of not being prepared to handle the risk with my description of Petro being injured.  I am not asking you to address a specific question to me where I get one or two responses.  Add value to the video and tell the public why they should not do exactly what CM did.  Give the public choices by identifying specifics like the potential harm in physically lifting up a Dane and twirling it to make the Dane go in the direction you want.  The way the video is presented with no disclaimer, it shows the public a 1-2-3 step to fix a problem and there is no need to seek professional help. There was a lot of adliving on CM part in the video.

DPU,
 
As far as I know with living beings, there is no perfect step 1-2-3. There are too many variables.
 
Dogs are not machines.
 
With puppies started out right from the beginning with a combination of training and Cesar's philosophies, there is a good chance the youngster will grow up fine, never need rehab, never need to be given up to a shelter due to behavior problems, or put down because the owners can no longer handle their dog and it has become dangerous.
 
Adult dogs who have already been messed up by a human being and may end up in foster care, are a whole other ball game.
 
No matter how many disclaimers and warnings some people get, they will not listen and go right ahead and do what they want anyway.
 
A child was bitten in the face due to some very bad advice given on one board I was on. I saw all of the warning signs in the poster's thread and despite some very harsh warnings from me to dump her current trainer (who was in way over her head) and get hands-on help from someone who was more qualified, she went ahead and did what she wanted and what made her "feel good", anyway.
 
You simply can't protect people from themselves. To remove and censor everything from the TV and the internet which someone might try to imitate (despite disclaimers and warnings galore), is the "people are stupid and we must control what they see to protect them from themselves" arguement...which really comes down to government control and laws telling us what we can see and what we can and can't do.
 
The only way to prevent all dog bites and accidents which might happen and to stop people from mishandling their dog's in ignorance, is to get rid of all the dogs. (or all of the people he-he [])
 
No thanks.
 
Videos clips are not dangerous. Imitating what you see a professional doing on them is what is dangerous. But, now you know this...right?
 
And now, everyone reading this thread knows this...right?
 
But just in case:
 
"Please do not attempt or try to imitate what you see in any dog training or handling video by any professional who is working with a dog"
 
"Do not attempt these techniques yourself without consulting a professional"
 
Note: It is very impolite to demand information from people. You have every right to ask, and I have every right to not respond.

I feel the need to step in here.
 
We seem to forget sometimes that the words off our fingers tend to read differently then the words that come from our mouths. I feel very strongly about this in this thread. I was alerted to it, I read it and I've been watching it now a second day and have to wonder......We all "seem" to understand the fact that we look for training aides, information, support and a better way to help our pets recover, deal and work out the issues that they might have through experienced "mentors" ( or so we'll call them that for now )
 When many people hold faith in an individual be it Pryor or Milan they tend to *think* that the technique or process should work just as well if they follow all the steps, sometimes we don't take into consideration the "elements" that surround us such as breed of dog, temperament of dog or our own life situations.
 In that instance we might feel that this "mentor" has let us down or maybe doesn't know anything, we've followed everything to the letter and yet it was destructive in our application.
 Although I've repeated this several times, I have NEVER watched CM's show, I couldn't begin to tell you what his technique is and honestly if I ever have some spare time I don't know that I will. For people who do not have access to the TV shows, posting the episodes where they can be seen freely might be a benifit to some but again, the application could possibly be the problem if they are attempted and I would hope that if such things are posted here the poster will put in a disclaimer. Should it not be present I will add it when I come accross it.
 
Now, this *should* be a friendly forum where like minded people can come and talk about things that they are interested in, help others with problems and support those who need it...behavior these days does not exhibit that tone....keep in mind these things when you are posting to your fellow forum member

I had to take a call before I could finish the above post so I'll continue.
 
What DPU experienced does not deserve the grief he is receiving here. Of course I do feel that with every method attempted we should be fully aware or atleast think out what *might* happen if.....
 
In a better way to explain this, I wouldn't expect anyone here to do anything that I might post from an episode of Jacka**, Wildboys or even Viva La Bam although I've done it and everything went well. Maybe the stars were aligned differently who knows!
 
We really need to examine the content, experience and knowledge that is contained and again, although I know nothing for or against CM other then the fact that he is bringing more discussion and proof of people training their dogs as well as promoting a breed of dog that is seemingly owned by irresponsible owners causing them being banned in many communities light in a more positive way, he is still a man with "ideas" and methods, some may work for our dogs while others may not and we need to apply what makes sense and leave behind those that won't without attempting

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

I would hope that if such things are posted here the poster will put in a disclaimer.

Disclaimer with a medium coke and large fries coming right up []

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

I would hope that if such things are posted here the poster will put in a disclaimer.

Disclaimer with a medium coke and large fries coming right up []

Thanks!!!!
Can you also SUPERSIZE that disclaimer so it is obvious...can you tell I spent some time working at Mc D's??

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

In a better way to explain this, I wouldn't expect anyone here to do anything that I might post from an episode of Jacka**, Wildboys or even Viva La Bam although I've done it and everything went well. Maybe the stars were aligned differently who knows!

 
Sorry I don't know what Jacka**, Wildboys...is.  More importantly why would you not want to discuss with your audience why is it ok for you and not for someone else when you provided a picture demonostration that translates well even beyond the English language.  Why would you not want to discuss a particular element to assure the knowledge was taken into consideration?  Why would you not want to discuss changing a variable and how that would change your demonostration?
 
Espencer, thank you for the qualification but I forgot to look if the invitation is still valid.  What say you?