CM and Fear

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Your wife, husband, sister, mother brother, dad or mom may coddle you, not the emt, or doctor, they help you. Examining and coddling have two very different meanings.

 
So are you saying the dog determines/defines examining vs coddling based on the relationship with the human?  The dog has no emotional attachment to an emt performing an examination at time of trauma so it is defined as an examine.  If the identical procedure is performed by the dad, then the dog defines it as coddling.
 
BTW, I think I am going to be in trouble if Petro figures out that going up the stairs will avoid the displeasure of going down the stairs.  I kind of saw the start of it because Petro slept in the living room last night rather than his bedroom on the 2nd floor. 

ORIGINAL: DPU


So are you saying the dog determines/defines examining vs coddling based on the relationship with the human? 

No, not the relationship, the emotional reaction.

ORIGINAL: corvus

David, I liked your description of the method you used originally to get Petro on the stairs. It put me strongly in mind of getting horses that hate floats loaded up. They walk them around in circles in front of the float, gradually widening the circle so that the horse has to step higher and higher up on the ramp to complete the circle. I've seen it done many times on television, and always thought it was a good way to do it. Seeing as horses are so large and skittish, it's dangerous for everyone to try to force them. I'm beginning to think I should train all my animals as if they were as large as a horse. []

 
It just dawned on me.  I always wondered why Petro does a circle before entering the house where he has a couple of stairs to navigate.  I always thought this was his way of a little rebellion and I ignored it thinking this independence gesture was good for him.  Amazing what you see when you start to look and examine your dog's behavior.
 
Corvus when I give Petro a touch on the hind leg to get him down the stairs, I say giddy yap.

common Joe like myself

 
I don't find you to be common. Quite the opposite, in fact. Your attention to detail, your desire to follow one thing, yet examine all angles, even if others have gone on. This shows a remarkable ability to concentrate and examine. Not common at all.
 

I want to enjoy CM and wish to discuss his training, the show and methods.

Espencer create a thread and made CM videos available to members for their viewing.  One of the videos, shiny floors mirrored my home situation and that situation is current, live, and on-going.  My OP wish to confirm qualifying the video so that anyone viewing it will not blindly follow it.  As I stated before, for most of the videos I have first hand experience with and my technique is similar to CM's but with some variations.  I can not say for sure unless I gain trust in CM via you guys, that if the new situation came up that mirrored his video made public here, I would attempt to do exactly what CM does.  I ask the people who are the most knowledgeable about CM philosophies, methods, and technique to also confirm, critique, or rebut my OP.  All but corvus (who I think is on the edge) danced around and ignored my OP. 

In this thread I thought CM could be showcased and assist people who are wondering what all the fuss is about.  I thought it would serve a public service so that when connected with the video, the public would have more knowledge to address a similar situation in their home.  The video can not stand alone out there for public viewing with no qualifications.  Above all of that I thought it would help me in my home situation to help a dog in need.  In the course of this thread my dog was injured.  Let me repeat.  MY DOG WAS INJURED!  And because of rules other members felt they could not come over to help.  It's a sad day when a dog in is need and gets injured and does not receive help because of personalities or their passions for training methods.

Like Sheprano, this is a defining moment for me but my actions will be different.  Perseverance is strong in me.  I have fortitude and I possession the skill to be very polite and respectful but in a pestering way.   

Take responsibility of CM's methods and use your knowledge to qualify that video.  A 'take it or leave response' is not good enough to serve the public interest.  Saying 'this should not be tried at home' doesn't cut it either.  Tell me point blank, given the breed, given its size, given its temperament, given its risks I point out, given the predisposition to heart attacks, given that it is a real fear and not unreasonable, given mom's comments, etc…..would you follow CM's methods?

ORIGINAL: DPU

In the course of this thread my dog was injured.  Let me repeat.  MY DOG WAS INJURED!  And because of rules other members felt they could not come over to help.  It's a sad day when a dog in is need and gets injured and does not receive help because of personalities or their passions for training methods.

 
Wow slow there cowboy!!! nobody said that you should not go to your dog and help, the way you made it see was like if you went down to "cuddle" with him and thats why we advice that you should not nurture the behavior by giving affection at the worng time
 
You make it sound like if we told you to let him down there and wish him good luck hehe, you for sure have to go and help him, no question about it, just dont "baby" him, thats all

DPU,
 
Despite the disclaimer, some folks are still going to go ahead and do whatever they want. If they see a clip about a police dog grabbing a sleeve on TV, they will go ahead and attempt to teach their dog to bite, rather than learn in person by a professional.
 
Some things must be taught in person by someone who understands what they are doing. One needs to be shown. Otherwise you could learn it all by watching a TV show and reading opinions on a dog board. It doesn't work that way.
 
To come onto a dog board and get pushy because one wants all of the information (that it may have taken someone many years to achieve and understand) and wants to understand it immediately, and have the answers right now, not only turns people off when the comments become rude, demanding, and accusing - but is also a warning flag of where this person's impatience is going to lead.
 
The dog was in your care and the responsibility for the injury is yours alone. I recommend you find someone teach you in person so that another dog is not injured, or something worse happens.
 
The best place to find someone is through:
 
[linkhttp://www.dogpro.com/]www.dogpro.com/[/link]
 
Better yet, contact Linn Boyke's ZEN4K9S center, so you can learn from someone who was actually taught by Cesar in person. He conducts 3 day workshops and also has a 30 day shadow program where you will learn to work with a dogpack (if you qualify).
 
You are highly intelligent and very driven, use this to your advantage in a more appropriate way. Bless you for the work you are doing with these dogs.
 
[sm=peace.gif]
 

ORIGINAL: DPU

I want to enjoy CM and wish to discuss his training, the show and methods.

Espencer create a thread and made CM videos available to members for their viewing.  One of the videos, shiny floors mirrored my home situation and that situation is current, live, and on-going.  My OP wish to confirm qualifying the video so that anyone viewing it will not blindly follow it.  As I stated before, for most of the videos I have first hand experience with and my technique is similar to CM's but with some variations.  I can not say for sure unless I gain trust in CM via you guys, that if the new situation came up that mirrored his video made public here, I would attempt to do exactly what CM does.  I ask the people who are the most knowledgeable about CM philosophies, methods, and technique to also confirm, critique, or rebut my OP.  All but corvus (who I think is on the edge) danced around and ignored my OP. 

In this thread I thought CM could be showcased and assist people who are wondering what all the fuss is about.  I thought it would serve a public service so that when connected with the video, the public would have more knowledge to address a similar situation in their home.  The video can not stand alone out there for public viewing with no qualifications.  Above all of that I thought it would help me in my home situation to help a dog in need.  In the course of this thread my dog was injured.  Let me repeat.  MY DOG WAS INJURED!  And because of rules other members felt they could not come over to help.  It's a sad day when a dog in is need and gets injured and does not receive help because of personalities or their passions for training methods.

Like Sheprano, this is a defining moment for me but my actions will be different.  Perseverance is strong in me.  I have fortitude and I possession the skill to be very polite and respectful but in a pestering way.   

Take responsibility of CM's methods and use your knowledge to qualify that video.  A 'take it or leave response' is not good enough to serve the public interest.  Saying 'this should not be tried at home' doesn't cut it either.  Tell me point blank, given the breed, given its size, given its temperament, given its risks I point out, given the predisposition to heart attacks, given that it is a real fear and not unreasonable, given mom's comments, etc…..would you follow CM's methods?

CM shows how when taught the way a dog understands, (not the human) what can be accomplished is amazing. The fact that your seeing 20 min of a n approx 3 hour session, is a very good reason one should not try his techniques without professional help. And I see nothing wrong with  the show saying "Don't try this at home".  People have a free will, a free will to do as they please. If they try something their told not to, they should take responsibility for their own actions.

It is such a simple question to respond to that still has not been answered.  There is no ramification to a IMO response.  Given the information I have shared with you about my observations of the video, would you follow CM methods as shown in the video and if so why would you ignore the information I provided. 
 
My dog was injured.  It is my responsiblity because of the choice I made.  I misjudged the risk and I did not go way overboard with safety precautions that I normally do.  I mean to show you the costs of not evaluating the risk and not taking appropiate measures for safety.  It is very much On Topic and I am seeking an answer from those that are knowledgeable with CM's philosophies, methods, and techniques. 
 
 

ORIGINAL: DPU

It is such a simple question to respond to that still has not been answered.  There is no ramification to a IMO response.  Given the information I have shared with you about my observations of the video, would you follow CM methods as shown in the video and if so why would you ignore the information I provided.

First off sense I work professionally with dogs and understand what he's doing, the answers not the same as it would be from the average dog owner.

My dog was injured.  It is my responsiblity because of the choice I made.  I misjudged the risk and I did not go way overboard with safety precautions that I normally do.  I mean to show you the costs of not evaluating the risk and not taking appropiate measures for safety.  It is very much On Topic and I am seeking an answer from those that are knowledgeable with CM's philosophies, methods, and techniques.

Well, first off Cesar's not injuring dogs when he works with them. Safety is always a concern when I'm working with dogs. And no two situations are exactly alike. One must evaluate their situation and and do what work's best.

ORIGINAL: DPU

It is such a simple question to respond to that still has not been answered.  There is no ramification to a IMO response.  Given the information I have shared with you about my observations of the video, would you follow CM methods as shown in the video and if so why would you ignore the information I provided. 

 
Please answer the question.

ORIGINAL: DPU
What did CM accomplish in the shiny floor episode?

He got the dog to walk on shiny floors.

Did he extinguish the fear?

Yes. 

Did he diminish the fear?

Yes.

Did he create a greater fear or a bigger worry for the dog?

No.

Did he correctly identify the source of the fear and address only part of the problem?

Cesar took care of the problem.  Why make things more complicated than they need to be?  They've done numerous follow-ups to this case on different shows.   They even showed the whole session unedited on the season one DVD.  The dog has been fine  since Cesar's first session and has never regressed.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: DPU

It is such a simple question to respond to that still has not been answered.  There is no ramification to a IMO response.  Given the information I have shared with you about my observations of the video, would you follow CM methods as shown in the video and if so why would you ignore the information I provided. 

Please answer the question.

 
Please answer the question.

It is such a simple question to respond to that still has not been answered. There is no ramification to a IMO response. Given the information I have shared with you about my observations of the video, would you follow CM methods as shown in the video and if so why would you ignore the information I provided.

My dog was injured. It is my responsiblity because of the choice I made. I misjudged the risk and I did not go way overboard with safety precautions that I normally do. I mean to show you the costs of not evaluating the risk and not taking appropiate measures for safety. It is very much On Topic and I am seeking an answer from those that are knowledgeable with CM's philosophies, methods, and techniques.

 
I'm sure you're not asking me, but since I have been following the thread I'll give you my answer. []
 
In any fear situation I would say all aspects of the "problem" should be considered. In the shiny floor case, it was my impression (based only on what I was given) that the fear was caused by shy dog + fear imprint period + mildly risky environment (somewhat slippery but level floor). In that case, with no evidence of a real threat to the dog in the environment, I think desensitization was appropriate.
 
In your scenario, on the other hand, there was a slightly greater risk/danger in the environment - a flight of stairs. Desensitization in the form of pushing the dog through the fear - even gradually, like one step at a time - had an element of real physical risk to the dog. The injury came not from the root of the fear but as a result of your handling (not placing blame, but just putting it in sequence).
 
Of course, you can never know 100% for sure that a dog's fear is unfounded and the environment is actually totally safe. But I think often we are pressed to try to make that judgment call. An example would be taking a puppy for a walk down the sidewalk, and because he's in a fear imprint stage and a little shy, he won't walk past some trash cans. You the human can be reasonably sure the trash cans present no real threat, and can lead him past anyway. When the pup makes it safely past the trash cans, you have addressed his fear by showing it to be unfounded or at least overblown.

Good post Jones.

Every situation is different, but from what I saw in the episode I would not have handled the situation differently with Kane, than how Cesar did.

The other point which needs to be made here, is there was also the reaction of the owner during Kane's initial slip and fall in which the owner herself mentioned she had over reacted to with coddling and a whimpering tone thus reinforcing the dog's fear.

When Cesar worked with the dog he not only worked the dog through the fear, he also provided a calm leadership presence which makes a huge difference to a dog in order to move them past their fear.

There is a difference between coldly flooding a dog, and using a flooding principle while also providing them with the assurance that the person they are with shows no fear and calmly moves forward with them.

To learn more, it's best to be shown in person by a professional, so dogs and/or humans are not needlessly injured.