CM and Fear

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Yet, all animals have certain things in common, all mammals have certain things in common, all canids have certain things in common, all birds have certain things in common...so to me, every animal I study still gives me little tidbits and pieces to the puzzle which is all a connected part of nature.

That's the way I feel, too, which is why I'm always upsetting people by mentioning animals that are not canids. Sometimes it's appropriate, though. Fear, for example, is a universal thing in all animals and is generally caused by the same basic things and responded to with the same basic behaviours across the board. Dealing with animals more prone to fear than domestic dogs, like prey animals, can give us valuable insights about fear that we miss in our usual dealings with dogs. I think when we disregard the behaviour of other animals because they're not dogs, we're being rather narrow-minded. Who are we to say dogs can't do something a rabbit might do just because he's a dog? I've been bitten by angry rabbits, too! []

I learned how to move around my hens in order to put them at ease by not moving quietly, like I was in a predatory mode. If I switched to a shooing away mode, it put them at ease.

As a kid I was barely ever home. Always out in nature with a dog or with my nose stuck in an animal book on rainy days.

Ever lay on the ground and watch a slug eat? Ever get so close you can actually hear them chewing?

Do you have slugs in Australia? []

Okay, enough of my OT ramblings...

I learnt to put wild birds at ease by acting like I didn't care if they saw me or not as well. It's funny that the moment you start clomping around clumsily and rattling branches, they figure you're no threat.

I've watched a snail eat. [] I had to dissect the radula out in second year. It was kinda disgusting, but utterly fascinating. I like snails. I like slugs, too, although our chickens never did. []

Time to end my own OT ramblings...

ORIGINAL: DPU

Espencer, thank you for the qualification but I forgot to look if the invitation is still valid.  What say you?

Wow i'm completly lost, i dont even remember what i said [&:] can you remind me?

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

In a better way to explain this, I wouldn't expect anyone here to do anything that I might post from an episode of Jacka**, Wildboys or even Viva La Bam although I've done it and everything went well. Maybe the stars were aligned differently who knows!

Sorry I don't know what Jacka**, Wildboys...is.  More importantly why would you not want to discuss with your audience why is it ok for you and not for someone else when you provided a picture demonostration that translates well even beyond the English language.  Why would you not want to discuss a particular element to assure the knowledge was taken into consideration?  Why would you not want to discuss changing a variable and how that would change your demonostration?

Espencer, thank you for the qualification but I forgot to look if the invitation is still valid.  What say you?

 
In the other thread, you extended the invitation to discuss the videos, which is what I did here.  Is that invitation still extended?

ORIGINAL: DPU

In the other thread, you extended the invitation to discuss the videos, which is what I did here.  Is that invitation still extended?

Last time i saw was right there standing still and quiet so yes []

Thanks again espencer.  So I will continue the discussion but first an update on Petro.

As I stated before the approach I am using to get Petro past the 3rd stair is to escort Petro down the stairs.  To get him started I touch his hind leg and say giddy yap.  I also expressed a concern that Petro may figure out that going up the stairs in the 1st place will cause him displeasure going down the stairs.  My concern was based on Petro sleeping one night in the living room.  That did not happen.  Petro is not back to his normal behavior.  He starts off sleeping in the living room but when I wake up in the morning, he is asleep in his bedroom on the 2nd floor.  My approach is now changing and Petro is in the drivers sleep.  I no longer have to touch Petro to start the movement.  In fact each day I go less and less up the stairs before Petro starts moving.  I no longer escort Petro along side him.  I am about one third up the stairways before Petro moves.  I think this is good progress.  I welcome predictions of what will take place next or any possibly set backs to Petro's behavior that I should be prepared for.

I would like to discuss two elements and I wonder if CM would have changed his approach in dealing with the shiny floor.  The 1st is age.  Kane is 1 year old so he is not a puppy and still growing physically and mentally.  There are 2 outcomes that I can not reconcile.  Is the dog mentally mature enough to take the flooding and thus potentially scarred for life or is he young enough so that the flooding trauma would be forgotten?   To me if this was my 8 yrold Blizzard, my impulse would be to let her keep/own her fear and make accommodations.  For Petro who is 2, I want to help Petro get over the fear.

The 2 element/variable I would like to explore is CM philosophies of dog vs human.  In the video CM says Kane wants to be just a happy Great Dane dog.  In other threads I see posters state that dogs are not human and shouldn't be treated as such.  I wonder if this mentality devalues a dog's life.  In the big picture yes, but I think if this thinking has a daily present in one's mind, then the human can't truly relate to the dog's feelings and can not recognize the degree of impact a trauma that can have on a dog.  I think dogs experience trauma differently inside.  I wonder if CM assumed all dogs' displeasure degree is the same.  Any comment?

ORIGINAL: DPU

Thanks again espencer.  So I will continue the discussion but first an update on Petro.

As I stated before the approach I am using to get Petro past the 3rd stair is to escort Petro down the stairs.  To get him started I touch his hind leg and say giddy yap.  I also expressed a concern that Petro may figure out that going up the stairs in the 1st place will cause him displeasure going down the stairs.  My concern was based on Petro sleeping one night in the living room.  That did not happen.  Petro is not back to his normal behavior.  He starts off sleeping in the living room but when I wake up in the morning, he is asleep in his bedroom on the 2nd floor.  My approach is now changing and Petro is in the drivers sleep.  I no longer have to touch Petro to start the movement.  In fact each day I go less and less up the stairs before Petro starts moving.  I no longer escort Petro along side him.  I am about one third up the stairways before Petro moves.  I think this is good progress.  I welcome predictions of what will take place next or any possibly set backs to Petro's behavior that I should be prepared for.

Glad to hear your boy is doing better.

I would like to discuss two elements and I wonder if CM would have changed his approach in dealing with the shiny floor.  The 1st is age.  Kane is 1 year old so he is not a puppy and still growing physically and mentally.  There are 2 outcomes that I can not reconcile.  Is the dog mentally mature enough to take the flooding and thus potentially scarred for life or is he young enough so that the flooding trauma would be forgotten?   To me if this was my 8 yrold Blizzard, my impulse would be to let her keep/own her fear and make accommodations.  For Petro who is 2, I want to help Petro get over the fear.

No Cesar IMO would not do anything different, and rightly so. What you call "flooding", dogs in nature call life. A mother who needs to get her puppies to move to a new den does not worry about her pups "feelings" on the matter. She does not coddle, and deafinately does not make "accommodations" allowing her pups to develop *unreasonsble* fear.  Only humans do this to dogs. Coddling a dogs fear only makes the fear worse. A dog or puppy can't mentally grow and move forward when their human (leader) dwells and holds on to the fear. By showing the dog there's nothing to fear, something the dogs own kind would do, dogs move forward.

The 2 element/variable I would like to explore is CM philosophies of dog vs human.  In the video CM says Kane wants to be just a happy Great Dane dog.  In other threads I see posters state that dogs are not human and shouldn't be treated as such.  I wonder if this mentality devalues a dog's life.  In the big picture yes, but I think if this thinking has a daily present in one's mind, then the human can't truly relate to the dog's feelings and can not recognize the degree of impact a trauma that can have on a dog.  I think dogs experience trauma differently inside.  I wonder if CM assumed all dogs' displeasure degree is the same.  Any comment?

Dog aren't human, and no, they shouldn't be treated as such.  Working with thousands of dogs over a couple of decades, I've never met one (not one) who I felt would look at any human thinking, *gee it must be great to be you* or*think somehow we have it better than them*.. And IMO thinking they want to be human or treated like one is a insult to dogs. IMO dogs enjoy and want to be just what they are, dogs. If anything, I think treating dogs like little humans "mentality devalues a dog's life." Because again, the fact is, they're dogs. And for me, I love them just as, and for what they are, dogs. Truely mans best friend.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

No Cesar IMO would not do anything different, and rightly so. What you call "flooding", dogs in nature call life. A mother who needs to get her puppies to move to a new den does not worry about her pups "feelings" on the matter. She does not coddle, and deafinately does not make "accommodations" allowing her pups to develop *unreasonsble* fear.  Only humans do this to dogs. Coddling a dogs fear only makes the fear worse. A dog or puppy can't mentally grow and move forward when their human (leader) dwells and holds on to the fear. By showing the dog there's nothing to fear, something the dogs own kind would do, dogs move forward.

 
Agree 100%, dogs live in the moment, of course they gain experience with the past they move on with their lives way faster than humans
 

ORIGINAL: DPU

There are 2 outcomes that I can not reconcile.  Is the dog mentally mature enough to take the flooding and thus potentially scarred for life or is he young enough so that the flooding trauma would be forgotten? 

 
IMO you dont have to worry about any of those 2, they only way he will be scarred for life is if you nurture that fear for the rest of his existence, the dog's mind is not as complicated as a human one, they only ones that can carry a fear for life are the humans, dogs just need a reason to continue with their happy life, that reason is you showing that there is nothing to worry about the stairs, the dog will remember one day you help him and also will remember that you showed him there is nothing to fear
 
All those questions you make yourself about what negative outcome can this situation have is only you thinking as a normal human, but that does not apply to dogs, that part of the problem does not belong to their way of living, they always see the glass half full, your dog only needs a little bit of help to go back to that life's phylosophy

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

FROM DPU: 
I would like to discuss two elements and I wonder if CM would have changed his approach in dealing with the shiny floor.  The 1st is age.  Kane is 1 year old so he is not a puppy and still growing physically and mentally.  There are 2 outcomes that I can not reconcile.  Is the dog mentally mature enough to take the flooding and thus potentially scarred for life or is he young enough so that the flooding trauma would be forgotten?   To me if this was my 8 yrold Blizzard, my impulse would be to let her keep/own her fear and make accommodations.  For Petro who is 2, I want to help Petro get over the fear.

No Cesar IMO would not do anything different, and rightly so. What you call "flooding", dogs in nature call life. A mother who needs to get her puppies to move to a new den does not worry about her pups "feelings" on the matter. She does not coddle, and deafinately does not make "accommodations" allowing her pups to develop *unreasonsble* fear.  Only humans do this to dogs. Coddling a dogs fear only makes the fear worse. A dog or puppy can't mentally grow and move forward when their human (leader) dwells and holds on to the fear. By showing the dog there's nothing to fear, something the dogs own kind would do, dogs move forward.

 
Wow, I did not see that view coming.  Maybe your response did not consider age as a factor.  I did say the 1st element I want to discuss is age and would CM do anything different because of age.  I know my impulse would be to do nothing and accommodate and my reasoning would be at age 8 the Great Dane would be nearing her end of life.  I am prepared to do a lot of accommodating as the dogs time nears.  Their behavior is surely going to change as they react to old age.  This is one end of the spectrum and then the other end of the spectrum is to not consider age.  I am speculating but if Kane was 8 yrold instead of 1 and CM would not do anything different, he would at a minimum loose audience appeal.   

ORIGINAL: DPU


Wow, I did not see that view coming.  Maybe your response did not consider age as a factor.  I did say the 1st element I want to discuss is age and would CM do anything different because of age.  I know my impulse would be to do nothing and accommodate and my reasoning would be at age 8 the Great Dane would be nearing her end of life.  I am prepared to do a lot of accommodating as the dogs time nears.  Their behavior is surely going to change as they react to old age.  This is one end of the spectrum and then the other end of the spectrum is to not consider age.  I am speculating but if Kane was 8 yrold instead of 1 and CM would not do anything different, he would at a minimum loose audience appeal.   

I may have missed that your right. And yes he would not IMO have used that technique on a dog nearing the end of his/her life. At least I know I would certainly change my method.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: DPU

There are 2 outcomes that I can not reconcile.  Is the dog mentally mature enough to take the flooding and thus potentially scarred for life or is he young enough so that the flooding trauma would be forgotten? 

IMO you dont have to worry about any of those 2, they only way he will be scarred for life is if you nurture that fear for the rest of his existence, the dog's mind is not as complicated as a human one, they only ones that can carry a fear for life are the humans, dogs just need a reason to continue with their happy life, that reason is you showing that there is nothing to worry about the stairs, the dog will remember one day you help him and also will remember that you showed him there is nothing to fear...

 
Thanks Awesomedog, what a relief.  Now if espencer could retract his 100% agreement with your statement, I think I am making progress in understanding CM chosen method in the shiny floor episode.
 
Espencer, this pertains to your second comment.  CM says that dogs are not humans and dogs just want to be dogs.  Owners should not humanize their dogs and their dog relationship behavior should reflect that.  With that distinction the human has a higher life value than the dog.  If you buy that, then proceed reading.
 
When it comes to sensations, things like pain, humans can only relate and translate based on their own sensations.  So in that respect it is humanizing the dog.  If you have a mind set that a dog has a lesser life value, then its pain threshold also has to be lesser because you have equated it to yours.  This allows you to take risks and hurt the dog, free of conscience.
 
Do you not think that it is arrogant of the human to say he knows the dog#%92s tolerance level for pain and displeasure?  Human can not remember the physical sensation of pain, at least I can#%92t.  But they remember the circumstances surrounding or what led up to that pain.  The dog has to be pretty stupid not to construct behavior on how to avoid pain and not remember the circumstances that originally caused the pain. 
 

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

I may have missed that your right. And yes he would not IMO have used that technique on a dog nearing the end of his/her life. At least I know I would certainly change my method.

Any idea where he would be on the spectrum?  Just trying to gauge CM's soft side.

ORIGINAL: DPU
Thanks Awesomedog, what a relief.  Now if espencer could retract his 100% agreement with your statement, I think I am making progress in understanding CM chosen method in the shiny floor episode.

Well I'll let him make that desision since he may be agreeing with how he understood my comment. I would like to try and get across here that know one person can say for sure how Cesar would handle things, except Cesar. The reason, simple, Cesar learned what he knows differently than how I learned what I know. Cesar will tell you he is not a obedience trainer, while my back ground allowed me to learn and go into many different aspects of training. Few who work with dogs actually do this. One thing I'm always amazed at is trainers who don't get to work with large packs of dogs, don't bother to do something as simple as *going to a busy dog park* to watch how our domesticed dogs behave in large groups. That makes no sense to me. And while I understand and share CM's phylosophies, that doesn't meen I agree with each technique he uses, but I'm sure he wouldn't agree with all mine either. But I have never seen him hurt a dog, I have seen him handle each situation the best he could for what was taking place.

Espencer, this pertains to your second comment.  CM says that dogs are not humans and dogs just want to be dogs.  Owners should not humanize their dogs and their dog relationship behavior should reflect that.  With that distinction the human has a higher life value than the dog.  If you buy that, then proceed reading.

When it comes to sensations, things like pain, humans can only relate and translate based on their own sensations.  So in that respect it is humanizing the dog.  If you have a mind set that a dog has a lesser life value, then its pain threshold also has to be lesser because you have equated it to yours.  This allows you to take risks and hurt the dog, free of conscience.

Wow I know your not addressing me, but you are really way off base here. Are you saying that if your house is on fire and your dog is in one window and your child is in another, you save who first? I love and would protect my dog against all things, but come on now.

Do you not think that it is arrogant of the human to say he knows the dog's tolerance level for pain and displeasure?  Human can not remember the physical sensation of pain, at least I can't.  But they remember the circumstances surrounding or what led up to that pain.  The dog has to be pretty stupid not to construct behavior on how to avoid pain and not remember the circumstances that originally caused the pain.

Dogs do remember what cuased them pain, they just don't unreasonably dwell on it, they learn from it and move on.

I hope I'm offering insight and not coming across as belligerent. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding, perhaps it's because we're doing this over the internet. and while I can easily say what i meen, it's difficult here. That's it.

All what Awsome said is right, including the answers for the questions directed to me, i dont have or seen any info about CM changing methods if he works with an older dog so i would not able to know

I too agree 100% with Awesomedogs statement, and no, I will not retract.[]

David, I'm not sure, but I suspect you're being misunderstood in your questions about how far we should humanise dogs if we should at all.

As I interpret the points you are making, if we refuse to acknowledge anything we might have in common with dogs, how do we empathise? If we don't empathise, do we fail to appreciate just how much our dog might be suffering? You don't strike me as the kind of person that wants to treat dogs like people, but you do strike me as someone possessed of a large amount of empathy for dogs and how they might be suffering. Sometimes I wonder about people that let their animals live on and on even as the pet is physically and mentally declining to such a degree that to me they seem like every day of life is a trial, and doing the things they always loved to do is now painful and too hard. I find it difficult to watch my animals in pain and be unable to help them. Watching one of my beloved animals in pain every single day is like torture to me. Is that humanising my pets because I can empathise with how they are feeling? If I refused to acknowlegde that they might feel pain in the same way that I do, could I be making a grave mistake by underestimating the degree of their suffering and consequently misjudging the best way to handle it, maybe even making it worse?

I generally think of dogs as 2 year old kids. I see a lot of similarities, and where I see similarities, I treat dogs like I would a 2 year old child. Where I see differences, I forge ahead into uncharted waters and try to treat them how I think they need to be treated, i.e. like dogs. But even my understanding of dog behaviour comes largely from empathising and imagining what it would be like to be a dog. So I'm still projecting human values on a non-human creature. But the alternative is to cut free from my dog and refuse to find common ground with them on which to build an understanding relationship.

As for age, I tend to be more accomadating for older animals as well. It doesn't matter so much, really.