If you like Cesar, who are your other role models?

My god you're widely read! There's bleeding HUNDREDS of 'em! I haven't read a fraction of the books I'd like to get my hands on yet.....

Well maybe that statement was a bite over zealous but I freelance for a major publishing company and proof read for circulation and distribution.  My manager sends me all the dog training books and has for years.  So I have read quite a few and kept copies of most of them.  My basement is full of books, not only dog training and my library in the main house as well.

Lucky you!  I'm banned from more books at the mo, OH says "too many already" Its true we have no room bookshelves are all overflowing, but IMO you can't have "too many books".  I love a good read.

I just wish I had better access to good dog books. I can't afford to buy many, and our tiny little town library has a total of 5 dog books (yes, FIVE!). I can get more through interlibrary-loan, but it would be so much nicer to browse a whole section of books and be able to choose.

why can't you just say who else you think has valuable training or behavior advice that you have taken? That's really all I asked for in starting this thread. What I am interested in is who would also appeal to the people who think CM is good, that's all.

 
I didn't think I was defending CM, but I also mentioned 3 other trainers/behaviorists in my reply.  I have stated before that I have read many other trainers and find nothing aversive about any of them.  Therefore, I take what they say and try to use it best I can.  I don't think there's any one particular dog trainer that I "love" or "dislike".  I surely don't go for inhumane treatment of animals, so anyone that does that I suppose I could say I don't care for.
 
I have read and enjoyed books by P. McConnell, B. Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson, Monks, Bruce Fogel, K. Pryor, that's what comes to my head.  They all seem to be knowledgable and respected people and therefore I listen to what they have to say.  
 
I think I get hung-up on the words "fan" and "hero" because I'm so old!  I feel like some teeny bop going to see David Cassidy and screaming when those terms are used! [] 

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Lucky you!  I'm banned from more books at the mo, OH says "too many already" Its true we have no room bookshelves are all overflowing, but IMO you can't have "too many books".  I love a good read.

 
Looks like you need to convince hubby of allowing just one more book in order to understand Cesar's philosophies a little better.
 
However (as I think Mastiff already mentioned) if you have already made up your mind about the guy, or he's not your cup of tea, I wouldn't bother.

Oh no I wouldn't agree with you there.  I have learned a lot from watching a few of his shows.  Not so much about how to train dogs or how to communicate with them it's true - but it has taught me a lot about myself and what I feel comfortable with and thrown some whole new perspectives at me.  That can be just as valuable as learning a new technique or overturning an old opinion.  I suspect I will never agree with the guy on around 90% of his methods and ideas, but that doesn't mean I can't take something valuable away.  At the very least, on the areas I disagree with him I have a shining role model showing me How Not To Do It.   Barbara Woodhouse was another whose methods did not sit comfortably with me at all, but "be firm, be fair, be fun!" is a sound philosophy to employ with any dog.  In addition, her proclamation that the best way to reward a male is to scratch him bewteen his legs was pure comic genius and also, strangely enough, accurate.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Oh no I wouldn't agree with you there.  I have learned a lot from watching a few of his shows.  Not so much about how to train dogs or how to communicate with them it's true - but it has taught me a lot about myself and what I feel comfortable with and thrown some whole new perspectives at me.  That can be just as valuable as learning a new technique or overturning an old opinion.  I suspect I will never agree with the guy on around 90% of his methods and ideas, but that doesn't mean I can't take something valuable away.  At the very least, on the areas I disagree with him I have a shining role model showing me How Not To Do It.   Barbara Woodhouse was another whose methods did not sit comfortably with me at all, but "be firm, be fair, be fun!" is a sound philosophy to employ with any dog.  In addition, her proclamation that the best way to reward a male is to scratch him bewteen his legs was pure comic genius and also, strangely enough, accurate.

When there was no Ian Dunbar, Barbara Woodhouse was considered positive!  The one thing I did learn from watching her was "walkies".  The use of that cheery voice does make the pups want to come along and walk with you.

Oh no I wouldn't agree with you there. I have learned a lot from watching a few of his shows. Not so much about how to train dogs or how to communicate with them it's true - but it has taught me a lot about myself and what I feel comfortable with and thrown some whole new perspectives at me. That can be just as valuable as learning a new technique or overturning an old opinion. I suspect I will never agree with the guy on around 90% of his methods and ideas, but that doesn't mean I can't take something valuable away.

 
Excellent post.  That's how it should be.  Whether or not you agree with someone is immaterial.  If you are open enough to see a whole big picture and maybe take one thing away with you then you did yourself a service.  You don't have to like anything about CM, but the fact that you came to that conclusion yourself is what matters. 

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

Oh no I wouldn't agree with you there. I have learned a lot from watching a few of his shows. Not so much about how to train dogs or how to communicate with them it's true - but it has taught me a lot about myself and what I feel comfortable with and thrown some whole new perspectives at me. That can be just as valuable as learning a new technique or overturning an old opinion. I suspect I will never agree with the guy on around 90% of his methods and ideas, but that doesn't mean I can't take something valuable away.

Excellent post.  That's how it should be.  Whether or not you agree with someone is immaterial.  If you are open enough to see a whole big picture and maybe take one thing away with you then you did yourself a service.  You don't have to like anything about CM, but the fact that you came to that conclusion yourself is what matters. 

Funny, but I came to that conclusion nyself, after due diligence - reading the book and watching the show - and I seldom get such a benevolent post. 
[sm=devil.gif]
I think we have to remember that even when we come to the conclusion that we do not agree with someone's methods, we have still learned something - even if it's just how we do not wish to proceed with our own dogs.  I mean, I've read "The Koehler Method" as well.  But, I certainly wouldn't perpetrate that cruel crap on my dogs. I did, however, feel that reading it was in the best interest of having some understanding of the history of the profession. 

I think we have to remember that even when we come to the conclusion that we do not agree with someone's methods, we have still learned something - even if it's just how we do not wish to proceed with our own dogs

 
That principle can be applied to other areas, as well. Example, with the boss that laid me off, watching his method in several areas, I know several more things to not do.
 
Likewise, it doesn't bother me if someone sees CM as having examples of what they would not want to do. And may that be an impetus to find the methods that work and are hopefully agreeable to the human. I also find that not one method will work in all circumstances. So, the more resources, the better. Whether those resources are a full treat bag or a strideful march where deviation is not allowed. When I need to take Shadow to the vet, he is going to the vet, even though he doesn't like the office. As leader, it is up to me to get him there and attend to him. That usually requires a muzzle, may require finding a spot next to the cattle gate, or it may require sedation. In the mean time, when possible, I will prefer to lead him there on a treat basis. But the last time we went to get his vacc updated, he was all about not going in there and the treats in my hand, that he will normally do ballet for, meant nothing to him. So, the vet and I led him to the cattle gate. And finally, he took a treat from the vet. One way or another, he's getting his shots. The shot itself doesn't even bother him. But leading up to it is a struggle. But I could teach "stubborn" to a mule and I will eventually lead him to my way. OTOH, he may never like it in the vet office. In which case, I would have to have his sedation shot for a procedure (not likely for a long time) given to him by the cattle gate and carry him in when he falls asleep.
 
Other times, he thinks I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. On the treat front, I'm teaching "watch" me and I got that idea from a thread here. And, of course, "drop it." I've been working on "drop it" for a week and tonight, he dropped his favorite ball without a treat in my hand. His reward was to play further with his ball and plenty of good boys as he proceeded to shred some more of it.
 
Sorry to go OT. I just had to brag a smidge.
 

On the treat front, I'm teaching "watch" me and I got that idea from a thread here. And, of course, "drop it." I've been working on "drop it" for a week and tonight, he dropped his favorite ball without a treat in my hand. His reward was to play further with his ball and plenty of good boys as he proceeded to shred some more of it.

Sorry to go OT. I just had to brag a smidge.

ron, if you would try clicker training, I'd send you the clicker. []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Donaldson may have an angry and slightly arrogant tone sometimes, but

 
But nothing.
 
Dog training is a "skill", which Jean may be very good at when "training" is what a dog needs. 
 
Both the aggressive attacks (against) and the misrepresentations (of) anyone who does not train the way she does and does not believe what she believes is nothing but bad social behavior filled with self-rightous ignorance.
 
Even those who are not Cesar-supporters, have noticed her sad behavior and commented on it.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Angelique

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Donaldson may have an angry and slightly arrogant tone sometimes, but

But nothing.

Dog training is a "skill", which Jean may be very good at when "training" is what a dog needs. 

Both the aggressive attacks (against) and the misrepresentations (of) anyone who does not train the way she does and does not believe what she believes is nothing but bad social behavior filled with self-rightous ignorance.

Even those who are not Cesar-supporters, have noticed her sad behavior and commented on it.

But it always seems to be the Cesar supporters who continue to bring it up.  If Jean Donaldson bothers you so much, don't read her books.  But, she certainly is not the only trainer or behaviorist to have publicly disagreed with CM's methods.  And, frankly, she isn't the only person I've noticed who sometimes comes across as arrogant in print.
How was your comment directed to the topic?

This thread has been very interesting and informative.  I'm new to this forum but not new to dogs and training.  I've read a few books over the years (unfortunately I'm terrible at remembering author names and I lost my entire library of books 2 yrs. ago in a house fire) and have learned alot about how to train dogs.  I've also learned, mostly through instinct and intuition and knowing MY dogs, what will probably work and what won't.   I am a Ceasar fan because I believe he truly does understand the dogs he works with.  He's not a dog trainer and he doesn't claim to be.  He doesn't even play one on T.V.  (just a little humor folks)  He understands dog behavior and the relationship between dogs and their human family.  It's been my experience that what he says about the importance of being a pack leader, exercising your dog, and establishing a relationship of mutual respect and trust is absolutely essential in raising well mannered companions. 
 
I've always had large dogs.  I'm a small person.  If I didn't establish my self as the leader of my pack, I wouldn't have a house left.  I've NEVER hit one of my dogs and I've never seen Ceasar hit a dog.  I've never had to do the alpha roll but I've raised all my dogs from puppies so I've always had complete control over them.   They have all been taught to walk off a lead, stay in the yard, come when called--all the basic stuff.  I haven't used anyone's particular training methods.  I've just taken what I've learned and used a little common sense.  I think Ceasar does the same thing. 
 
I guess I don't understand where all the annimosity towards him comes from. 
 
I have a favorite quote from an author I DO happen to know.  The guys name is Herbert Spencer.  He was a biologist.  The quote is:
 
 "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance---that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
 
By the way, it's nice meeting you all and I love this forum.  I look forward to getting to know you all better,  and to continue to learn how to be the best dog parent I can be!

I guess I don't understand where all the annimosity towards him comes from. 

Don't worry, TeriF. You'll get used to it! I was kind of amazed, myself when I first started checking out dog boards. I've heard many points raised against him that I understand, but sometimes the intensity of dislike that is shown seems disproportionate.

Anyways... welcome! I love your quote! I'm a quote junkie and hadn't seen that one before.