The Leadership Walk

I've seen a number of episodes where CM brings in one of his helper dogs, walking off leash, down the street, or whereever he happens to be. By sheer preponderance of visible evidence, he is doing something right. If the dog was unhappy, it would run away at the first chance.

I just want to point out that this is possible using a variety of methods, positive and far from positive. Go to any stockdog trial and every single dog there walks from the car to the post off leash, with the thing he wants most in the world (sheep) all around him, plus bitches in heat, strange dogs, kids, cars and golf carts on the move, you name it.

Trust me, very few of those people have even heard of CM. And many of them make him look like he belongs in the Shining Path camp, their methods are so harsh. And all of their dogs trot cheerfully with them to the post and heck, most of them aren't even handshy. They've learned through bitter experience that the "safest" place is at the handler's side, unless asked otherwise. [sm=eek.gif]

ORIGINAL: Trevell

Cesar very often doesn't even use a leash with his dogs.  Using a tool, like a collar high on the neck is only temporary, and in my experience works much better than something like a Gentle Leader, which my dog and many other dogs find EXTREMLEY uncomfortable.



I'd also like to point out that "The Walk" isn't just about exercise and wearing out your dog like some people think.  If I wanted to exhaust my dog, I'd have to run him on my bike for several hours everyday.  The walk is about stimulating your dogs mind.  Getting him into "the zone", which is a beautiful thing.  Some say it simulates the dogs natural migration during the hunt.  My dog always gets his meal after the evening walk.

Well, I fail to see how placing a prong or choke collar high on a dog's neck and forcing him to walk along gets him into any kind of a "zone" that I would want a dog to be in.  Wouldn't it be nicer to have a dog that has enough of a relationship with you that it wants to walk nicely along with you, and doesn't need to be forced to do so? 
Your dog may have found the GL bothersome, but in my experience that has less to do with whether a dog is really bothered by it, and more to do with it not being introduced to the dog gradually, and associated with "good stuff happening for the dog".  We use lots of treats and praise, and often we don't even make the dog wear it the first few times.  Just on and off it goes.  Then, we take care to have the dogs first steps in it be accompanied by lots of jackpots for the steps forward. 
I submit that you can get into the "zone" better by teaching your dogs a targeting behavior and making it worth their while to remain in the position you want, building on that step by step. 
Exercise should not have to be unpleasant for the dog for it to be efficacious.  CM may accomplish that with his own dogs, but I've seen a lot of stress signals on the client dogs that are walking with him, and that tells me that the dogs don't quite think that they are in a pleasant "zone".  Sure, they are doing what he says, but I don't see the willing attitude that a dog displays when they are happy to be there, walking nicely with the human who has become the best thing since sliced bread to them.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


Well, I fail to see how placing a prong or choke collar high on a dog's neck and forcing him to walk along gets him into any kind of a "zone" that I would want a dog to be in.  Wouldn't it be nicer to have a dog that has enough of a relationship with you that it wants to walk nicely along with you, and doesn't need to be forced to do so? 

 
I think you havent seen those times when he uses a bag of treats in front of the dog to make him walk, about forcing a dog to walk i would like you to point an example where he actually did that, which actually i would bet was a misconception from your part []

I saw an episode recently where he used a can of moist dog food to lure a Golden into the garage, where she was fearful of the air compressor noise. Then, other than some leash corrections to maintain a sit, he largely used "turn and ignore". Do not reward the anxiety. When she finally relaxed and no longer paid attention to the air compressor, and more importantly, wasn't keying her reaction off of the wife, who would also get tense, she laid down and got affection. CM accomplished this by redirecting the wife's state of mind to a topic that she enjoys and gets relaxed about. The dog, reading the wife's behavior, realizes that there is nothing to fear and quits getting anxious. CM didn't use any finger bites, alpha rolls, or scruffing.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Trevell

Cesar very often doesn't even use a leash with his dogs.  Using a tool, like a collar high on the neck is only temporary, and in my experience works much better than something like a Gentle Leader, which my dog and many other dogs find EXTREMLEY uncomfortable.



I'd also like to point out that "The Walk" isn't just about exercise and wearing out your dog like some people think.  If I wanted to exhaust my dog, I'd have to run him on my bike for several hours everyday.  The walk is about stimulating your dogs mind.  Getting him into "the zone", which is a beautiful thing.  Some say it simulates the dogs natural migration during the hunt.  My dog always gets his meal after the evening walk.

Well, I fail to see how placing a prong or choke collar high on a dog's neck and forcing him to walk along gets him into any kind of a "zone" that I would want a dog to be in.  Wouldn't it be nicer to have a dog that has enough of a relationship with you that it wants to walk nicely along with you, and doesn't need to be forced to do so? 
Your dog may have found the GL bothersome, but in my experience that has less to do with whether a dog is really bothered by it, and more to do with it not being introduced to the dog gradually, and associated with "good stuff happening for the dog".  We use lots of treats and praise, and often we don't even make the dog wear it the first few times.  Just on and off it goes.  Then, we take care to have the dogs first steps in it be accompanied by lots of jackpots for the steps forward. 
I submit that you can get into the "zone" better by teaching your dogs a targeting behavior and making it worth their while to remain in the position you want, building on that step by step. 
Exercise should not have to be unpleasant for the dog for it to be efficacious.  CM may accomplish that with his own dogs, but I've seen a lot of stress signals on the client dogs that are walking with him, and that tells me that the dogs don't quite think that they are in a pleasant "zone".  Sure, they are doing what he says, but I don't see the willing attitude that a dog displays when they are happy to be there, walking nicely with the human who has become the best thing since sliced bread to them.

Like I said, using certain tools to help control my dog were only temporary.  The GL didn't teach my dog anything really.  I'd take it off and he'd immediately go back to pulling on his flat buckle collar to the point of choking himself again.

The funny thing is, being so heavily marketed as a "positive" collar,  the GL uses the same high and tight on the neck, behind the ears technique as well.  The difference is that the loop around the muzzle corrects the dog constlanly with pressure, even when he is not pulling. 

I've also heard Cesar tell people to quit focusing on the dog, look ahead, stand up straight, and pretend they are carrying a purse or briefcase.
 
 

I see a HUGE difference between a "tight" lead and a lead that is simply not loose. When I rode hunter-jumper, a western friend thought it was "cruel" that we keep our reins so "tight." Well, in comparison to a Wesern Pleasure rider, who has reins looped nearly to the horse's knees, I suppose they did look tight. But for Hunt Seat, the preference was for "contact" with the horses mouth. You couldn't use the reins to communicate with the horse if they were too tight or too loose. The rider was expected to change position and lenghten/shorten the reins at all times to keep soft contact with the horse's mouth no matter what gait or activity. What is this all getting at? Well, with soft contact, all it took with a small twist of the wrist or even a tightening of the fingers to communicate cues to the horse. I have carried that over to walking my dog - even to the point I often hold the lead between my ring & pinky finger without realizing it. When we're goofing off, she's free to wander on the end of her lead. But when we're training or when I need her to listen to me, she is at my side with soft contact on the lead. Not tight. Not loose.

I also hold the lead between ring and pinkie - habit picked up from working in kennels with untrained, heavy, strong dogs who were liable to pull, or worse, lunge.  If you don't hold it that way and you get "caught" it can HURT!
 
I'm not so horsey so I could be wrong, but isn't the rein one of your primary sources of communication with the animal?  I prefer to have the lead slack at my side because I don't use it to communicate with the dog.  I have verbal signals and hand signals for when I need to get his attention, redirect him, or tell him to do something.  I also think that a lead that is "just taut" has less room for error on the dogs part (or yours).  The slightest mistake and becomes "tight" rather than "just taut".  I personally don't feel comfortable walking this way.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

I see a HUGE difference between a "tight" lead and a lead that is simply not loose. When I rode hunter-jumper, a western friend thought it was "cruel" that we keep our reins so "tight." Well, in comparison to a Wesern Pleasure rider, who has reins looped nearly to the horse's knees, I suppose they did look tight. But for Hunt Seat, the preference was for "contact" with the horses mouth. You couldn't use the reins to communicate with the horse if they were too tight or too loose. The rider was expected to change position and lenghten/shorten the reins at all times to keep soft contact with the horse's mouth no matter what gait or activity. What is this all getting at? Well, with soft contact, all it took with a small twist of the wrist or even a tightening of the fingers to communicate cues to the horse. I have carried that over to walking my dog - even to the point I often hold the lead between my ring & pinky finger without realizing it. When we're goofing off, she's free to wander on the end of her lead. But when we're training or when I need her to listen to me, she is at my side with soft contact on the lead. Not tight. Not loose.

 
Working with horses sure helped shape how I work with dogs, too. I was strictly a trail and pleasure rider (two of my horses came straight off the track), but I remember reading a lot of horse mags about the different opinions on any given topic.
 
Similar discussions on the use of training tools and tack. How much "bit" was used - came down to similar debates regarding how much bit you needed to be safe and control the horse vs a "good" rider could control their horse with a less "severe" bit.
 
When I was dealing with green, flighty horses while  riding in the city, I learned to communicate a calm demeanor around scary and strange objects. Tightening up on the reigns, sitting tense, speaking in a high-pitched voice, etc...all would have been counter productive to getting the horse to trust me and move forward. It's an art to learn just how much "pressure" to use in any given situation as you can't "muscle" a horse. Since you are in physical contact with the horse they can also "feel" your emotional state or "energy".
 
I think I learned a lot about dealing with fearful dogs through dealing with fearful horses, and use similar techniques with a pretty light touch.
 
It is a lot about attitude with both species.
 
 
 
 

I am a bit late to this thread, and am not much of a CM follower  ( his shows are shown relatively infrequently on a rather obscure channel over here) and I have a relatively simple question (I hope). When he  talks about the dog being "in the zone" when on the walk, what does he mean? Is he referring to the time en the dog is focussed on the handler?
 
 

ORIGINAL: Vinia

 When he  talks about the dog being "in the zone" when on the walk, what does he mean? Is he referring to the time en the dog is focussed on the handler?

 
You got it, when the dog does not care about anything else around him and is focused on the excersice and the owner only []

Surely that defeats part of the purpose of the walk?  OK so it encompasses physical exercise and alledgedly the owners leadership....  But it denies them the chance for a great deal of mental stimulation, which is after all a huge part of "the walk".  And I use the word "alledgedly" because I've never seen a superior dog in any pack (domestic, feral or wild canid) lead an "inferior" pack member that way and so I am completely missing how it is applicable.  Sure its a way to shape a behaviour and get the dog walking nicely so his owners can enjoy the walk - but I can't see what this has to do with leadership???  What am I missing??

but I can't see what this has to do with leadership???

 
I think you partiall answered your own question. You pointed out that you do not see a pack of canines, whether loose domestic, or feral, wild, "leading" each other on a walk by means of a leash.
 
So a walk on leash with a human is unique, compared to loose, possibly feral or wild canines. And that leash is a concession to liability. 200 years ago, there were no roads as we know them nor vehicular traffic. A dog would either choose to follow you, or not. Walking with humans on leash requires certain rules. And the human needs to have control.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Surely that defeats part of the purpose of the walk?  OK so it encompasses physical exercise and alledgedly the owners leadership....  But it denies them the chance for a great deal of mental stimulation, which is after all a huge part of "the walk".  And I use the word "alledgedly" because I've never seen a superior dog in any pack (domestic, feral or wild canid) lead an "inferior" pack member that way and so I am completely missing how it is applicable.  Sure its a way to shape a behaviour and get the dog walking nicely so his owners can enjoy the walk - but I can't see what this has to do with leadership???  What am I missing??

 
I'm sure that you know what is the NILIF program right? well that same program is applied during the walk, only after the dog has shown that is focused on doing excersice he can have 5 or 10 minutes to smell the trees, pee, looking around or whatever he wants to do, the dog will have that freedom only in under the owner terms and not when the dog wants to, the dog still has a mental stimulation but not during the entire walking time, is not the same the excersice your kid has while running around in a six flags park with a lot of distractions that the excersice he gets if he is in a sports team, you know what i mean?; at the same time the owner gains leadership because he/she is the one setting the boundries of the mental stimulation time and the dog is not deciding when to do it

So it's just the same as teaching loose leash walking and heeling? There's a lot of ways to do that so I don't really see what's so special here. My dogs know from the speed that I'm walking and how short I am keeping their leashes whether we're on walk time or sniff time. When we're walking, we're all just walking with heads up and forward looking where we're going. That's mainly for when we're in crowded areas (which is a lot since we're in the city) or just need to get somewhere quickly. Having hounds, though, when they have their noses to the ground that is mental stimulation for them and that's sort of the whole point of me taking them out. I'd hate to deny them that just to prove a point.