The Leadership Walk

I think I know where this is going, Chuffy-style. If the life and world of a domestic dog is so different than that of feral and wild canines, how can we look to their behavior as a model for our dogs?
N'est pas?

Well, I fail to see how placing a prong or choke collar high on a dog's neck and forcing him to walk along gets him into any kind of a "zone" that I would want a dog to be in

 
I've never seen him do this??  By being in the "zone", I mean that the dog is in sync, has a good pattern of movement, is looking straight ahead, not distracted and is "migrating" vs. just running around tangling up the owner on the leash.   His dogs are in the zone when they are jogging with CM on skates, or an owner on a bike. 
 
CM doesn't walk with a tight leash.  He uses loose leash walking all the time and corrects owners when they pull too tightly or are tense.   

Cesar has no "rule" against letting your dog sniff or wander while on lead. He just emphasizes that you choose when to let your dog do that, not the dog. Like NILIF. Play is OK, but you decide when it begins and ends, not your dog.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Having hounds, though, when they have their noses to the ground that is mental stimulation for them and that's sort of the whole point of me taking them out. I'd hate to deny them that just to prove a point.

 
Like i said, they still have their mental stimulation but only when the owner decides, is just applying NILIF during the walk and thats why i was talking about the six flags example, it is not the same to excersice while you are having distractions than when you are focused on it, you are not denying anything, is about quality and not quantity of that mental stimulation

is about quality and not quantity of that mental stimulation

 
True.  I like the analogy of the human exercising.  If I'm in the pool just paddling around with my kids, it's not the same as me concentrating on doing good laps and really putting 100% into my focus.  Same for joggers, bikers, etc.  All can be done for "fun", but being in the zone is more serious and quality work. 

The difference between what most people see as a walk at heel and what Cesar does -  he does not teach the specific command of "heel" as a trainer would. He sets a boundary of "do not move past this point". Much simpler for the dog to understand and easier for an owner to grasp and use. IMO
 
The difference between what a trainer sees as a leash correction (which is a bad thing in some circles), and what I see Cesar doing (because I look at it from more than a training point of view), is he is using the leash to set a boundary with a bump of the leash, containment of a dog who is out of control (which also sets and teaches the boundary), redirection of a dog with a tug of the leash (like a tap on the shoulder), and correcting the dog with the leash if need be (like a nip from a dog).
 
This exercise is not for getting a dog's drive (excitement level) up  - the goal being to achieve a calm and submissive (Polly want a cracker?) follower state in the dog.
 
This exercise is not for allowing the dog to choose to obey - the goal being for the dog to accept leadership and direction, especially in social settings where they come in contact with other dogs, people, and distractions.
 
This exercise is not used for stimulating a dog to think of anything but following the direction of their leader and the task of moving together as a unified "in the zone" pair with a leader and a follower.
 
Even other dogs who see you move with a dog in this manner, recognise who is leading. This can help keep your dog safe because they are not out in front, excited, making decisions, and issueing challenges (which most folks don't even see) to other dogs.
 
I think I've already mentioned, this is a specific exercise for specific purposes. The addition of training sessions, thinking exercises, sports, and other challenging and learning activies to this exercise, is a great way to go.
 
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: Angelique

The difference between what most people see as a walk at heel and what Cesar does -  he does not teach the specific command of "heel" as a trainer would. He sets a boundary of "do not move past this point". Much simpler for the dog to understand and easier for an owner to grasp and use. IMO

The difference between what a trainer sees as a leash correction (which is a bad thing in some circles), and what I see Cesar doing (because I look at it from more than a training point of view), is he is using the leash to set a boundary with a bump of the leash, containment of a dog who is out of control (which also sets and teaches the boundary), redirection of a dog with a tug of the leash (like a tap on the shoulder), and correcting the dog with the leash if need be (like a nip from a dog).

This exercise is not for getting a dog's drive (excitement level) up  - the goal being to achieve a calm and submissive (Polly want a cracker?) follower state in the dog.

This exercise is not for allowing the dog to choose to obey - the goal being for the dog to accept leadership and direction, especially in social settings where they come in contact with other dogs, people, and distractions.

This exercise is not used for stimulating a dog to think of anything but following the direction of their leader and the task of moving together as a unified "in the zone" pair with a leader and a follower.

Even other dogs who see you move with a dog in this manner, recognise who is leading. This can help keep your dog safe because they are not out in front, excited, making decisions, and issueing challenges (which most folks don't even see) to other dogs.

I think I've already mentioned, this is a specific exercise for specific purposes. The addition of training sessions, thinking exercises, sports, and other challenging and learning activies to this exercise, is a great way to go.

Can i quote your reply in another threads or you have it copyrighted?  []

Excellent post, Angelique.......[]

ORIGINAL: espencer

Can i quote your reply in another threads or you have it copyright?  []

Certainly! Anything I share in a public forum may be used and shared with others. Just remember, these are only my opinions on what Cesar is doing. []

You might want to print it out, though. We seem to lose threads around here from time to time.

Looks like I'm going to have to do a new thread defining Cesar's use of the dreaded "D" word...again. *sigh*

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Surely that defeats part of the purpose of the walk?  OK so it encompasses physical exercise and alledgedly the owners leadership....  But it denies them the chance for a great deal of mental stimulation, which is after all a huge part of "the walk".  And I use the word "alledgedly" because I've never seen a superior dog in any pack (domestic, feral or wild canid) lead an "inferior" pack member that way and so I am completely missing how it is applicable.  Sure its a way to shape a behaviour and get the dog walking nicely so his owners can enjoy the walk - but I can't see what this has to do with leadership???  What am I missing??

I'm sure that you know what is the NILIF program right? well that same program is applied during the walk, only after the dog has shown that is focused on doing excersice he can have 5 or 10 minutes to smell the trees, pee, looking around or whatever he wants to do, the dog will have that freedom only in under the owner terms and not when the dog wants to, the dog still has a mental stimulation but not during the entire walking time, is not the same the excersice your kid has while running around in a six flags park with a lot of distractions that the excersice he gets if he is in a sports team, you know what i mean?; at the same time the owner gains leadership because he/she is the one setting the boundries of the mental stimulation time and the dog is not deciding when to do it

 
The feel I was getting from a lot of the posts was that the dog was happiest when "in the zone"  and focused entirely on his handler and that this was the best thing for his well being.  Now it sounds like he is actually at his happiest when he is allowed to sniff and explore etc and that the period where he is under close control is a prelude to that, and the dog gets to do the things he prefers doing as a reward when he has behaved nicely on the lead?  (It's terms like "in the zone" that confuse me!  That could be taken to mean a number of things.....)
 
Does this apply when the dog has a normal collar on and the lead is slack by your leg, or does the "leadership walk" refer solely to when the collar is high up under the ears and the lead taut?  I'm not sure I've ever seen him demonatrate "the leadership walk" on a slack lead.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

This exercise is not for allowing the dog to choose to obey - the goal being for the dog to accept leadership and direction, especially in social settings where they come in contact with other dogs, people, and distractions.

 
Ah, this is where we part company.... always, always, always I would prefer to have the dog choose to obey me.   
 
So in summary then, looking at Angelique's post as a whole, the "leadership walk" is NOT primarily about physical and mental stimulation, but primarily about getting the dog to accept the boundaries you place on him (hence the name, bit of a giveaway) and the other two are only secondary?

Chuffy, I think that's really the crux of the whole argument.  We want to establish a relationship of trust and respect so that our dogs think being with us is the greatest thing since sliced bread, while others simply want the dog to obey.  

You're probably right there, but I'd still like to know more about this Leadership Walk, how it works and why its necessary.

I am not going to get into the whole Cesar Good vs. Cesar Evil thing, largely because I think it is stupid, but here is my experience with walking.

Sally is a space queen.  Ever since we got her at a year, she has been like this.  At first I would walk her like you see most people walking their dogs.  Dog out in front, pulling, with the person doing what the dog wished.  Obviously, she paid no attention to me.  Finally, I got a GL and started walking her at my side, the leash loose but not too loosedoing exercises that kept her attention on me.  Whenever we walk, she is next to me.  If I feel she is not paying attention, I speed up, slow down, change directions, etc.  We also work on "watch me" on these walks.  She is allowed to sniff as long as it is not interfering with our pace, or if I tell her it's OK.  These walks have been nothing but benifical for her.  She is much more attentive and seems to enjoy her walks whether she is by my side or up in front of me.

The way CM does it, with choke chain and forcing the dog to walk behind, I don't think it is necessary.  But, I do think that exercise, wisely applied, helps a lot of dogs take the edge off and concentrate on a training session better, or avoid boredom behaviors that are problematic. JMHO, but my advice is that if you want to understand how he views it, you should read the book.