Segregated

Glenda--no snow jokes! My dog is post op and I don't want to even consider snow or ice while we rehab! (I'm teasing--but really, I am NOT looking forward to "fresh snow").

To the other angry posters--whatever. I don't know what to say to you but the shock value you bring to our board is amazing. So, maybe this: to each his own? Is this worth getting so angry over? Are suggestions worth getting angry over?

Whoa. It's the weekend . . . if you train without clickers and if you train cop dogs, great. I don't. And this works for me. I've done the non-clicker, non-treat training and I know where I belong now.

Oh nfowler I made it snow a little, sorry.  That was before I knew your pouch was in recovery, sorry.[&:]   Hope everything is ok.

[sm=rofl.gif] I'm sorry, in that string of comments from WWD, this thread has suddenly gone from annoying to hilarious. Can anyone else see the humour in this situation? We all made very good points, and we were all actually reasonably pleasant about it considering what a loaded topic it is, and WWD goes into throes of martyrdom and the whole "Well I've been in dog training for this many years I think I know what I'm talking about" routine. Dude, if you've been training that long and still haven't....never mind.

Okay WWD, I didn't realise you were talking about the training only, because to me, training is an ongoing thing that never stops. I've been training my dog non-stop for nearly 11 years. I put verbal rewards in with treats because fundamentally they're the same thing and I was wondering if you realised that. I was trying to see if you used that method as well. The reason why I still believe operant conditioning (the training, not the whole process) is not bribing is because you have to see the whole process through in order to call it a training method. Savvy? []

Other than that, never mind. I am absolutely not getting further into this argument, which I now view as a joke. It's pretty clear it's only still going because someone has it in for Anne and has to argue with everyone else who uses her methods as a result, now.

Good luck with the training, WWD! [sm=lol.gif]

wisewilddog, I don't understand what would make you believe that people who use operant conditioning techniques are only training pets.  OC techniques are being used in other disciplines as well by quite a few trainers, myself included.
And, personally, I don't like the inference that trainers who opt to train pets are somehow less than.  Some people just want to make a dent in the number of dogs who end up in shelters because the general public is so woefully undereducated about dogs.  Some of them have exceptional qualifications and expertise, and simply choose that as their "thing".  Everyone isn't interested in training Schutzhund, just as everyone isn't interested in gundogs, or flyball.

As to my coming here to "start this", I admit to being miffed at the beginning, but have been told that, as long as the posts are respectful, all members get to post here.  My later posts on this thread have been written in that spirit, and to add to the discussion.  I defer to Jaime's judgement as to whether she agrees with that assessment.  I also tried to move the discussion to another thread when it became apparent that you have such strong feelings.  I think that it's best for me to bow out, now, though, because other members are expressing that this seems to be going in the wrong direction, and I agree.  

I'd just like to say, Anne, that I think you've done an admirable job of holding your temper in check and your recent posts have been a model of courtesy and self-control. I hope you feel a little less stressed about the whole thing than you did before, and I'm glad to see you in this area of the forum with helpful tips. It would have really sucked if we had lost all the experienced folks that use a variety of methods, and I was worried it was going to turn into a back-patting fest just like fisher was saying. I'm relieved there are members that will provide meaningful discussion willing to keep an eye on threads here .
[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

[8D] Thanks, corvus - that's appreciated, coming from you.

I'm relieved there are members that will provide meaningful discussion willing to keep an eye on threads here

 
I didn't realize these threads needed to be over-seen by other members. That statement seems a bit as if the posters (CM'ers) here need to be watched after like a bunch of children in a day care. That's somewhat offensive, but I'm sure you didn't mean it to be []

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

I'm relieved there are members that will provide meaningful discussion willing to keep an eye on threads here

I didn't realize these threads needed to be over-seen by other members. That statement seems a bit as if the posters (CM'ers) here need to be watched after like a bunch of children in a day care. That's somewhat offensive, but I'm sure you didn't mean it to be []

That may be your interpretation, and I respect your opinion. 

My interpretation is that "keeping an eye on things" means to provide point-counterpoint in order to encourage an exchange of ideas and methods.  One of the first things I learned in debating topics is that to more fully understand one's own opinion/belief structure, one should understand one's opponents opinion/belief structure.   

That being said, I also "keep my eye" or watch these threads.  There may be some useful information exchange, if we can get past the whole "segregated" idea.  This is a wonderful forum and I've learned alot here.  I hope to learn more.  Even though I don't espouse all of the ideals and methods of any specific trainers, I am willing to listen to those ideas and methods and consider whether they could meld with mine and add to my "arsenal" of training methods.

I know I don't have as much experience training dogs as the majority of folks on these boards.  That doesn't mean I don't have personal experiences both good and bad that might benefit someone else.  I could dismiss other methods because I haven't used them before and don't feel like I need to use them-but I don't and I won't.

There are certain training methods that are species specific and there are others that can be used for many species.  I've used positive R to train a cockatoo-I didn't know that was the proper name for what I did, but I did it and was very successful at using hand and voice cues to elicit behaviors that I desired.  I've also used alpha d0minance training methods to train an akita (I didn't know any other methods existed.) 

Is it a good idea to promote free exchange of ideas throughout the entire forum?  I think so.  Even if it means that some of us feel like we're being "watched like children."

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

I'm relieved there are members that will provide meaningful discussion willing to keep an eye on threads here

I didn't realize these threads needed to be over-seen by other members. That statement seems a bit as if the posters (CM'ers) here need to be watched after like a bunch of children in a day care. That's somewhat offensive, but I'm sure you didn't mean it to be []

Oh man, I tried so hard to think of an inoffensive way to say that! [:'(]

I just wanted to express my relief that this part of the forum hasn't quite turned into a place where people who don't all together agree with CM don't want to go at all. I do think we all benefit from hearing other people's ideas, even if they disagree with us. Especially when they disagree with us and are willing to share their experiences and why they don't agree. When this section was created, there were a lot of people whose opinion I really respect who were saying they didn't think they were welcome here and I was thinking "Nooooo, come and contribute, just don't be nasty and inflammatory". The more people that contribute the better, IMO.

By 'keeping an eye' on the threads I simply meant literally watching the threads, keeping track of what was being said the same way people do in all the other parts of the forum. I really appreciated the input on the flooding thread I started in this section of the forum. A lot of it came from people that don't wholly subscribe to everything CM says and we could discuss in which cases flooding was appropriate and when it was not. It's not strictly CM, but because it's in the CM part of the forum, we can mention his name without it turning into a verbal brawl and still actually discuss the topic at hand. I was pleased that people who don't consider themselves "CM people" were watching the threads and contributed.

This thread is about feeling segregated, and I'm going to bring it back on topic by saying that now that things have settled a little, it doesn't feel to me like we're segregated. I really hope we can continue to discuss any method of training that might accidentally or purposely touch on CM here without that detracting from what people have to say.

Hope that didn't offend anyone! [&:]

Hope that didn't offend anyone!

 
Now, my one last feeling is hurt![]
 
Just kidding. I don't have any feelings. They fall off like barnacles when I pull into port. As for whether or not we're treated like kids, I pity the person that has to change my diaper or nappy. I can't say whether this situation will work out or not but the other threads have ground to a halt and everyone's over here watching the brouhaha.
 
That's entertainment![]

OK, since you brought it up [].  I still do feel it's segregated, but, frankly, the kind of discussion that takes place anywhere on any behavior or training thread should be about the methodologies, and not about individuals.  When the discussion degenerates into us versus them, instead of why you would or wouldn't treat a certain problem with one method or another, you get the emboldened typeface, insults, and stalking that make every thread unpleasant.  

I still do feel it's segregated,

 
I don#%92t see it as a segregation thing.  What I see is a place where Behaviorist, Trainers, Experience Dog Owners, and Dog World Workers can come and discuss topics and issue amongst themselves.  These people are in a league different from the regular dog owner.  This is very beneficial to the audience who is reading the posts.  Look at the subject matter of the threads.  Look at the participants.  There is no other place on this forum like this.   You can still venture out and respond to dog owner problems and questions in the other thread.  What I would like to see is the snobbish and arrogant attitudes disappear and more respect not to the opinion but to your fellow human being.  If an audience member asks a question or request clarity don#%92t treat the same as your peer or gang up on them.  For me my delivery is awkward but that#%92s not an indication of my intelligence, my experience, my understanding, or my commitment to give my pets the best life I can.  Maybe the title of the Sub-forums should change.

That's precisely why you don't tell the child *beforehand* that there's anything in it for them if they clean their room. Of course, if they do it, and there happens to be a nice thank you, or they gain a privilege because you were pleased with their behavior, my guess is that they will be happier to clean their room the next time.

 
That's true in my household.  We would NEVER off a reward  prior to them cleaning their room, or whatever we ask.  Kids get a much bigger kick out of being rewarded AFTER their task in completed and I can see their delight written all over their faces when I praise them and tell them what a good job they did.  My boys are 8, so they love that affection.  To show them a reward before the job is started or completed would be a bribe, same as with a dog and that's not the same as using a reinforcer.
  
Don't faint, but I am agreeing with you here!! [sm=wink2.gif]

Actually, I'm not fainting!  I'm glad you get it LOL!!! [sm=wink2.gif]