Segregated

Perhaps, but if we aren't careful, Jaime might. [sm=rotfl.gif]

Houndlove, I must say that I so admire your willingness to be one of those people who was willing to learn how to master a new method, and really give it the benefit of the doubt.  I think there are quite a few people here, myself included, who came to positive training because we wanted that happy relationship with our dogs, but wanted them to obey us and be safe as well.  Thanks for being honest about your earlier experiences with training.  My own reason for the switch was that I was never able to put a satisfactory recall on a dog using jerk and pull methods.  It cost my dog's life when he pulled a training lead out of my hands and cut me to ribbons, but placed him, and the off lead dog he took off after, into the path of a car.  Once I found that positive training got me the recalls I needed for every one of my dogs, I was totally hooked.  And, I've since trained two hounds with great recalls, too. A Beagle, and my current hound (Redbone x Foxhound).

Perhaps, but if we aren't careful, Jaime might

 
I was hoping someone would appreciate that and yes, Jaime can use correction on us. Lack of privileges might be considered an aversive or correction and I'm fine with that. And, I think it's interesting that even though I do the obedience-treat or reward training off leash in the house or back yard, it transfers to leash, as well. As I have pointed out, Shadow can sit or down in harness just as easily, with or without treat. Though I must say that sometimes, it may depend on proximity to a stimulus. Other times, he does me proud. One day at Petco, this lady was having a time controlling her two dogs, a beagle and a Husky/GSD they were excitedly jumping around Shadow and trading sniffs. I commanded a sit and Shadow sat, impressing the heck out of everyone, including the lady with the two dogs. Victory is mine, one step at a time. And Shadow's, too.

Thanks, Spiritdogs and Houndlove, for saying (better than me) how you come to be where you are.
 
I remember feeling like rewards were only bribes, too, but that was when I was in another class that barely touched on operant conditioning. Now I get it.
 
It's like I wrote earlier--you have to be willing to drop the perceptions and negative attitude and really head into a different type of training in order to come to some solid conclusions. I have done the "I'm the alpha hear me roar" training before--first with my own hound (because I couldn't find any other books and I lived in nowhere land), then with both my current dogs.
 
Recently I saw how they were NOT learning and I turned to clicker training and amazingly enough, this class also taught me how to stand, how to talk (or not talk), and how to do this and how to do that.
 
So--I've learned a TON and while I am unable to apply ALL of it to Ellie right at this moment (since she's become a martian during her THR recovery stint), it's becoming more of who I am now.
 
However you all train your dogs, more power to you--at least more dogs are being trained. Not that I see much of that here in Idaho, but they are.
 
I know mine are happier and always waiting for the next signal. It was great tonight, out walking my male: I swung my arm up in the air for a recall test and I watched his face while he was thinking--running through the list of signals and what this meant he was to do--and here he came, full-speed, and stopped right in front of me and sat.
 
Yep--and it's only been 9 weeks. Amazing little guy.

If you want a really good example of someone with guts enough to make a switch, it's Gail Fisher of All Dogs Gym in Manchester, NH.  She not only changed methods, doing so made her change her entire business to reflect that change.  She has written some of the best booklets that go along with her classes - I bought a couple at the Kathy Sdao seminar recently.  Gail is one of those trainers who doesn't "dumb down" the material too much, so that those who are interested to know why food isn't bribing, when used in this method, can learn that.  Imagine dumping your whole biz for a new model...now that's courage!

ORIGINAL: corvus

Oh dear, WWD. We've had these arguments before. Nothing new here. I've only been here for a few months and I saw the exact same argument a little while ago. What people like you fail to understand is that treats are PHASED OUT.

What people like you "fail to understand" is...I've been around the dog training game for 25 years, and not just training...pets. Yes I'm aware that treats are phased out, and if some of you people didn't have such selective reading skills you might have noticed I've said more than once...I'm not saying it's a good thing...I'm not saying it's a bad thing (<see!!! ) I'm calling it what it is...bribing.

I have already pointed this out in this very thread. How can you say a dog is simply doing something because you're bribing when the bribe never comes?

I'm talking about the training part and technique. Is that not obviously clear here?

Many of us phase out treats all together. I personally got into the habit of murmuring "good girl" whenever my dog did something I like and still do, even though she's 11 and has been quite reliable for many years now. Is that wrong somehow? I quite enjoy telling her she's good.

I don't see anything wrong with it. When did I say I did?

And really, when it comes down to it, who freaking cares why a dog is behaving as long as it's behaving?

I don't.

All dogs are selfish creatures; they only do things for themselves.

Here's where your wrong (studied a lot of natural dog behavior have you?) Fact; Dogs in packs provide for other pack members. higher ranking members hunt while others stay back and watch the youner ones. how is that selfish? My dogs will bring me their bully sticks, how that being selfish?

A dog trained in a traditional fashion with corrections is NOT doing it "for you". It's doing it to avoid corrections. A dog that receives no treats as reinforces, but gets praise is still being positively reinforced.

That's why one single way of training doesn't work for all dogs. I thought I've made that clear over and over.

And lastly, dogs have a different sense of time than we do. If you don't give a dog a treat for following a command for an entire day, it's pretty much the same to the dog as if you didn't give it a treat for following a command for a year. I know plenty of dogs that were trained with treats years ago that still do exactly what they're told even though they never get a treat anymore. Honestly, if you still think teaching a dog with treats is bribing, then I feel sorry for your dog and any subsequent dogs you own.

SORRY but all of my clients who meet my dogs can see that they are well balanced happy dogs. AND AGAIN!!!  for the last time, I'm talking about the training itself, and yes...it is bribing.

ORIGINAL: nfowler

All I can say, wilddog, is that you should enroll in a class, drop the attitude, and see what happens.

Do you for one second believe that anyone working with dogs in more than one field hasn't seen every training technique out there. Perhaps it is you that needs to go and see how other dogs besides...pets...are trained. Go check out some police dog training...here's what you won't see...a clicker...or treats.

I can't believe you even bolded that--that might be your perception but wow . . . You need to try it wholeheartedly before you knock it. I've done the other method (the one I think you do right now) wholeheartedly before, for 2 years, before I switched.

You've actually no clue as to how I train. Each dog I work with shows me what works for them.

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

ORIGINAL: wisewilddog

I'm simply stating my point of view...it's not like you have to agree with or listen to it. No?

right you are. i went ahead and blocked you. as i dont feel you have anything constructive or worthwhile to say.

See how easy that was.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
It's not appropriate here because this section is for people who want to discuss CM.
But, since you persist, I will just respond by saying you have absolutely no idea what positive reinforcement training is all about, or you wouldn't make such ridiculous assertions about it.  I don't know why you are so angry that my dogs don't need a treat every time to behave.  Jealous?  []

I persist? Take a long look in a mirror dear, it is you that can't stay away from here and leave it along. I even said...go ahead and start a thread else where, but no...you keep coming back here. Where's your self control? I know exactly what +R training is, it is you that doesn't understand any type of training beyond that. I'm not the one LOL who's angry here, that would be you, other wise you'd quit coming back here...take your own advise...and start this debate in a section where it belongs. this thread was something different before you came in and changed it. Shall we go back and have a look? And...jealous? Hehe hehehe haha Bahahahahahaha. That's the best laugh I've had so far.

I'm curious as to how a "professional dog trainer" has so much time to sit at a computer.

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

WWD you are very argumentitve with your bolds and your caps, its not you just stating your point of view.

Says you. I'm simply doing my best to make sure the *selective* readers are getting the point, which even that doesn't seam to help.

And if I may add there is a huge difference in bribing and rewarding, I don't care how you slice it.  I have raised two children and have another young one and I DO know the difference.

Bribing is persuading to influnence behaving, like my DH does "want a cookie River?".  Rewarding is the return of something for performace of a desired behavior, positvie rienforcement.

So your trying to tell me...that when you tell a dog to sit, he/she does so, you give them a treat, that they're not doing it the next time because they know there's a distinct possibility that they might get another treat? Are you telling me that in the training phase that the dog doesn't smell that you have treats? Are you telling me that *some* dogs when you remove the treats won't follow the command...and that treats are not brought back into the equation? Because...sorry I've seen other wise. So it's still bribing..."anyway you slice it".

I do like CM and do believe he is wonderful in his way and I also love other positive trainers as well and believer they are wonderful as well.  I like this section on CM but you make it hard to enjoy!!

I didn't start this part of the conversation, spiritdogs did, even though I thought she wasn't suposed to do so here. And while she constantly slams Cesar every chance she gets...I've yet to...slam...treat training. I've stated it doesn't work all and every dog out there, or in some fields of training.  Example...attack training.

PS:  Why don't you go check out Petshub those kids would love to argue with you all day.[]  It might be more suitable.

Why don't you? Or even better, block me the way someone else did, simple...no? And again...I didn't start this.

ORIGINAL: ron2


And I don't think we're accomplishing much if Wise wants to take each sentence out of context and slice and dice. Even though this thread has been about feeling segregated, we're still seing problems and it has nothing to do with CM.

#1. I'm not taking each sentence out of context...I'm replying to each thing said...covering each point.

#2. Let me say this again...I didn't start this...spiritdogs came here and did so. Or did you miss that.

I, too, wonder why we have to "argue" about it. Yes, this is a CM-supportive section, but I'm not going to bow and kiss the ring. I, for one, would like to see the discussions turn back to what advantages we get from CM's "Way". Or, if he were here, would he give us a collective Shhhh?

While I like Cesar's philosophy I myself don't goe along with everything he says, so this is not about weather your "not going to bow and kiss the ring." 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

If you want a really good example of someone with guts enough to make a switch, it's Gail Fisher of All Dogs Gym in Manchester, NH.  She not only changed methods, doing so made her change her entire business to reflect that change.  She has written some of the best booklets that go along with her classes - I bought a couple at the Kathy Sdao seminar recently.  Gail is one of those trainers who doesn't "dumb down" the material too much, so that those who are interested to know why food isn't bribing, when used in this method, can learn that.  Imagine dumping your whole biz for a new model...now that's courage!

Or it's simply trying to...fit in with the crowd.

Now I'm done with this, the admin can boot me if they like but it was YOU spiritdog that bought this debate over here and admin allowed you to do so. So if I'm booted...fine, if not i'll go to another part of the Cesar section where maybe you won't feel the need to follow and styart another debate. As for now...I...actaully have dog work to do.

Have a nice day.

and the personal attacks just keep on coming......what's next?  Being called a treat dispensing butler/roommate again?
 
Here's the bottom line folks.....be it a treat, a "good girl" a game of fetch or tug, whatever we USE when our dog complies is a reward.  Some choose to call that reward a bribe.  I call it a reward, WWD calls it a bribe.
 
He's not going to change MY mind, I'm not gonna change his......as a very wise woman told me, we are a passionate bunch here at idog.  And we've pretty much self policed and kept things "nice" for a couple years now, so when someone, anyone, gets unpleasant, it send shock waves through our little world.  And we all react to that and then it snowballs and we get long, unpleasant threads that cause segregation of areas.........the only way that snowball stops is when it runs out of FRESH SNOW.......so can we step back and LOOK at what's happening here and maybe stop adding fresh snow?

the only way that snowball stops is when it runs out of FRESH SNOW.......so can we step back and LOOK at what's happening here and maybe stop adding fresh snow?

 
I like the analogy and it would be, IMO, a corrolary to my question of why do we have to argue.

While I like Cesar's philosophy I myself don't goe along with everything he says, so this is not about weather your "not going to bow and kiss the ring."

 
I should clarify. I wasn't thinking about you specifically when I wrote that line. But I can just about guarantee that even among CM fans, there will be differences of opinion. Nor do I think that he is the only way to deal with a dog, though I have received what I think is valuable insight from his approach. So, I defend him as an approach to be used, if necessary, and that no one is perfect, and that I gain insight from several sources. So, I won't kiss the Dunbar ring, either.
 
But I hope you can see that this tit for tat isn't helping the segregation or desegregration thing, either. That is, we're not discussing the principles involved in training methods if we're parsing out semantically each line for sequential logic or lack thereof. Notice that I haven't disagreed with you but I do question that applicability of this type of debate to the larger picture. Nor was my earlier post a disagreement with you on a particular topic but simply stating that, IMHO, it isn't helping anything, either.
 
Yes, there are some people, in general, who will not like CM no matter what. In which case, it is a waste of energy to respond. This section would be better off by concentrating on what benefit CM brings, rather than what someone's opinion means in a line by line analysis, though we are all welcome to our opinions. That is, I would rather read what you think is good about CM and if possible, back that up with science, than to read what you thought about the third line in the second paragraph, of whatever Spiritdog wrote. I can read what she wrote and mangle, I mean, manage my own meaning from it. I wouldn't want to see the thread get snarled in a personality clash, losing sight of the real ideas involved.
 
It might be worth noting that CM does not allow fighting, one of the things I agree on with him. Fighting just escalates. Then again, some fighting does resolve rank issues but there is an end to it at some point. Either voluntarily, death, or the intervention of a stronger alpha.
 

ORIGINAL: wisewilddog

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

WWD you are very argumentitve with your bolds and your caps, its not you just stating your point of view.

Says you. I'm simply doing my best to make sure the *selective* readers are getting the point, which even that doesn't seam to help.

But instead I believe its taken as an argument and by the tone of the thread I believe that's how evreyone may be taking it as well.  You may have good points but they are lost with the caps and bolds, not taken.  IMO

And if I may add there is a huge difference in bribing and rewarding, I don't care how you slice it.  I have raised two children and have another young one and I DO know the difference.

Bribing is persuading to influnence behaving, like my DH does "want a cookie River?".  Rewarding is the return of something for performace of a desired behavior, positvie rienforcement.

So your trying to tell me...that when you tell a dog to sit, he/she does so, you give them a treat, that they're not doing it the next time because they know there's a distinct possibility that they might get another treat?

You're exactly right.   Here's an example with my son.  He comes home from school with a great paper, an A and I decide to take him miniture golfing as a reward for work well done or maybe I give him a cookie.  The next time he takes a test, he will remember that if he does well he "may" get rewarded.  Sometimes the reward is praise and sometimes the reward is tangable. But there was no bribing.  Now here is an example with my dog.  He walks up to me licks my face and lays down at my feet, I reward with a cookie or praise.  The goal is to have the dog remember that there may be a reward waiting when he lies down.

 Are you telling me that in the training phase that the dog doesn't smell that you have treats?

Yes of course, but I'm not holding the treat over his head telling him to sit - that would be bribing.

Are you telling me that *some* dogs when you remove the treats won't follow the command...and that treats are not brought back into the equation?

  Oh sure if your using a reward based training and take the rewards away before the training is completed and the dog is reliable - then yes that could happen.  Same goes for aversives, anything needs to be done until the dog is reliable.

So it's still bribing..."anyway you slice it".

If you'r not luring, your not bribing.

I do like CM and do believe he is wonderful in his way and I also love other positive trainers as well and believer they are wonderful as well.  I like this section on CM but you make it hard to enjoy!!

I didn't start this part of the conversation, spiritdogs did, even though I thought she wasn't suposed to do so here. And while she constantly slams Cesar every chance she gets...I've yet to...slam...treat training. I've stated it doesn't work all and every dog out there, or in some fields of training.  Example...attack training.

I beleive not any one training, in of its self, works with every dog and every training situation.  This is why I too like Cesar.  But when you state that a positive trainer who uses rewards for compliance is "bribing" that is slaming their methods.  It's the same if someone were to say that by using leash pops your a yank and crank trainer, its slamming a method.  We all can use samantics to get our points across.

PS:  Why don't you go check out Petshub those kids would love to argue with you all day.[]  It might be more suitable.

Why don't you? Or even better, block me the way someone else did, simple...no? And again...I didn't start this.

 

Wasn't nice and I take it back and appolize, but I do think that your points would be better receieve and become a debate or discussion worth a thread if you weren't in defense mode all the time.  Regardless of what others said or who "started" it? 

Just in closing.  I receive commission when I bring more revenue to my company.  My job description states that I am to bring "X" amount of new revenue to my company every year so my salary and my job is based on my abilities to perform.  However, it has been proven that by offering a reward/commission/compensation to eople who do bring new business to a company increases productivity and increased sales.  Is he bribing me?  No, becasue if I don't choose to perform I get fired.  But he is inscenting me to go above and beyond his expectations by rewarding me when I do. 
 
What he dosen't say to me is "if you bring in three sales I will give you your salary?" That would be a bribe.  What he does say is bring me these sales and I will reward beyond your salary.  The option is there if I chose to receive it, I still get paid.