Segregated

Good post kennel Keeper.  I agree with everything you said.

I don't believe that the thought was to segregate anyone, but rather to give CM fans a place to talk unmolested by us +R folks.  I do NOT disagree with everything about the man or his methods, but I have been made to feel very unwelcome on any thread that discusses CM.
 
I believe that Jaimes intent was to give you guys a place where everyone KNOWS what the topic will be so we don't stumble into a thread unknowingly and get our brains bashed in......she certainly didn't say that this is the ONLY place you can discuss traditional training methods. 
 
Actually, I think probably a lot of folks use BOTH or solely traditional methods.  That would make a good poll.
 
But, the raking each other over the coals in each and every training thread just HAD to stop.

Good points, both. And as we sometimes say "Sometimes, ya gots to do what ya gots to do."
 
Some time ago, there wasn't this much brouhaha over CM, partly because a number of people who like him wouldn't state it for fear of the reprisal that would come along. A few new people have come along who have no problems defending him but, in so doing, also tend to return or create personal zingers and it all escalates from there. So, by creating a separate area for this one dog expert, if someone comes in here to slam him or someone who likes him, they are violating forum etiquette.
 
As I mentioned before, it would seem experimental if things divide into two camps, only one of which feels it is diametrically opposed to the other. If things get said, it may be tempting to cross from one kennel to the other and the flame begins, anew.
 
One thing I think both packs are agreed on, that a dog should not be hit or caused physical pain to correct it. What differs perhaps is the definition of correction, etc., etc.
 

I actually find it odd that there is no similar place for +R folks to speak about their methods unmolested.  Personally, on many of the CM threads, I have felt that my professional qualifications have been questioned, I have been accused of being nothing more than a treat dispenser (even after trying to explain the mechanics of operant conditioning more than a few times), and generally made to feel that I belong to some "clique".  I do not conspire with others to eliminate members, or their opinions, which I believe was the meaning inferred by the use of that word.  I simply do not shrink from debate, and I do not allow ignorance to go unchallenged when it comes to dogs. 
What we have is segregation all right, used to keep the so called +R people off your threads, and from disagreeing with your methods, which you are still free to do with them on any other training and behavior threads.  In my view, that segregates the +R people, not you.  You have a cushy little spot to tout your hero unchallenged. 
So, the newbie dog owners who see the guy on TV so automatically think he's wonderful, can cruise the CM threads all they want without any opposing viewpoint that might actually help them.  I think that you all might take a lesson from the "peer reviewed" thread to see what intelligent discussion can lead to.  Instead, it seems people here are only happy with their one point of view and are glad to see the others eliminated, perhaps because their arguments against such views were so weak.  If you feel segregated, you earned it. The most distasteful comments here have come from some people with less than 100 posts on this forum, yet they have turned the place upside down.  Glenda is not the devil, and in fact has been the peacemaker more than you know.  She also cuffed me a good one when I first came here, and yet has come around to my way of thinking on a few issues, and I to hers.  So to all who think she runs some kind of clicque, the only one I know of is the one that says "loyalty to idog".  Many of the originals here have been run off to other places by the likes of the CM threads.  They get tired of the nonsense.  Many of them are at ourdogsonline, or at dogaddicts, and other places.  We still go there, too, for relief sometimes.  But, Glenda stays here.  She likes this place - it feels like home to her.  I find it nasty that people would suggest that she is anything but the nice person she is. 
Please note that when I made the suggestion of separate threads, I did not infer that anyone would not be welcome on the opposing thread, only that there should be a place where people would know, from the get go, what the majority position was intended to be.  We could just as well have set up threads for agility, police k-9, schutzhund, and freestyle, as for CM, clicker training, or operant conditioning.   Some forums actually do that, and I find it helpful.  Instead of searching through everything, and all the hoopla, you could simply go to "police k-9".  But, you would not probably find the entire section named for Steve White, or any other trainer.  Any more than you would find a clicker training section called "Karen Pryor".  This is just ridiculous.

You aren't EVER gonna let me forget that TRADE comment, are you??[]
 
But, thank you Anne!

The most distasteful comments here have come from some people with less than 100 posts on this forum, yet they have turned the place upside down.

 
????
 
Now, why be like that....don't you remember you were new at one time?
 
Some people could sit here all day long and post, they could rack up posts real fast...........
 
Are we really keeping scores on how many posts a person makes?

I believe that Anne's point was not how many posts anyone had, but the fact that it was because of the NEWER people that a specific section needed to be created.
 
In the not so distant past, we could HAVE actual conversations about CM and his methods without it turning into a name calling and ugly thread.
 
I will be honest that I have avoided a TON of threads simply because A) it was getting really old and B) I didn't want to be called names....the old Irish temper will only hold for so long and I didn't want to contribute to the problems.
 
And I won't tell you how many posts I *really* have.....or how many got "lost" when the forum changed format......

Anyone is free to post wherever they want to.      

Actually Mastiff, if you read THE RULES of this topic, +R folks are cordially invited to go ELSEWHERE on the forum to post.  And I think that's what's gotten stuck in Anne's craw.  So actually, both of us have violated the rules by posting here at all.
 
I did NOT realize that until I read the rules a few minutes ago, so I'll just go away and leave you guys to your own section......

Actually Mastiff, if you read THE RULES of this topic, +R folks are cordially invited to go ELSEWHERE on the forum to post. And I think that's what's gotten stuck in Anne's craw. So actually, both of us have violated the rules by posting here at all.

I did NOT realize that until I read the rules a few minutes ago, so I'll just go away and leave you guys to your own section......

 
I don't think you should leave.
 
Positive comments are always welcome.[]

I think the new CM area is unfortunate.

Well here it goes, my blood pressure is up thanks to this forum as of late, I am sick to death of the members who can not seem to get their point accross in an adult fashion without personal comments as well as digs. ADULTS? I wonder where some days...yeah, I've had enough...my simple attempt to keep the peace on both sides
Have at it all of you!
 

I apologize, Jaime, if I contributed to the BP increase.  I stated the rules thread as I interrupted it and didn't intend to create more conflict.
 
I personally think that it is a good idea to have an area where CM and/or his methods can be discussed without intrusion from others.  It's not as if they are expected to climb into a little box and STAY there.......

My first thought when there was the delineation was that , ok, where is the other prof. soap box going to be?
 
On second thought, I realized that the reason seems to be, (don't hit me with a racket, LOL), but I think that when you get so "into" something, You can not see the forest for the trees, a kind of tunnel vision if you will.  And it happens on all sides of the coin. 
 
I recognize that sometimes you must try to see the value in a topic, both what you see as good and bad.  But more so, what is the point of that thread? 
 
Lots of times a topic is started merely for the thrill of controversy, when in fact, most go into that thread, already with minds made up.  And it is again, on both sides of the coin. 
 
Everyone has preferences.  But question should be, how much do I really know about this scene, sitch, training...  Is there something more to learn? 
 
I have a big problem with sensationalism, tv evangelistic type personalities.  The world is full of it.  It causes wars!  ....And forum anger.  I don't know CM.  And I have kind of been avoiding watching it, for some reason.  I do think he is trying to make a ton of money...of course he is!   And that in of itself causes distrust to me. 
 
From my experience I want to know that  a professional earned his degree in the subject that I pay for...from caring to me and my family to caring for my dog.  So, maybe that is prejudicial.  And so that is it.