Segregated

If you practice in other methods of training there are other areas where you'd enjoy yourself much more, please visit there and contribute.
 
This is what I wrote...and I will disect it for those who think otherwise
 
IF you practice in other methods-you might not feel comfortable posting here or getting responses that can come..not that you're not welcome but as we've seen in the past the threads which involve CM go to **** in a hand basket QUICK
 
Everyone is welcome to participate in every area, but as of late the behavior needs modifying all the way around the table

I do not allow ignorance to go unchallenged

  This is just as bad as being called a treat dispenser.  You are saying that the views that don't agree with yours are ignorant?

I actually find it odd that there is no similar place for +R folks to speak about their methods unmolested.

  Were feeling alittle molested at the moment.

 ersonally, on many of the CM threads, I have felt that my professional qualifications have been questioned, I have been accused of being nothing more than a treat dispenser (even after trying to explain the mechanics of operant conditioning more than a few times), and generally made to feel that I belong to some "clique".

  Who said the words "Cesar Millian groupies"?  That makes me feel like I am in a clique as well.

What we have is segregation all right, used to keep the so called +R people off your threads, and from disagreeing with your methods, which you are still free to do with them on any other training and behavior threads.  In my view, that segregates the +R people, not you.

  I think that this thread was opened so the +R people would stop doing what you have done in this post.

You have a cushy little spot to tout your hero unchallenged. 

  I don't think that is true, it is welcomed.  But "you" in perticular find it necessary to give your personal opinion on the man and not the methods.

I think that you all might take a lesson from the "peer reviewed" thread to see what intelligent discussion can lead to.

  This too is derogitory as if CM believers can't have an inteligent discussion.  I guess that's your opinion?

Instead, it seems people here are only happy with their one point of view and are glad to see the others eliminated, perhaps because their arguments against such views were so weak.

  I don't think the agruments are weak, there are results that prove the argurments.  As far as one point of view, you are the most vocal on this front.

Please note that when I made the suggestion of separate threads, I did not infer that anyone would not be welcome on the opposing thread, only that there should be a place where people would know, from the get go, what the majority position was intended to be.

  And I am hoping this thread does not elimate the opposition.

Any more than you would find a clicker training section called "Karen Pryor".  This is just ridiculous.

   If Karen Pryor had a popular TV show she would be referred to as well.  So this is mute.

And here we go....off to the races again.[>:]
 
Jaime, come on over....I'm fixing the drinks and YOURS is a double!

And here we go....off to the races again.

Jaime, come on over....I'm fixing the drinks and YOURS is a double!

 
You can make mine a triple because I cannot believe this is continuing.

Anne,
 
...oh nevermind.
 
Sorry Jaime...[sm=wink3.gif]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

 I think that you all might take a lesson from the "peer reviewed" thread to see what intelligent discussion can lead to. 

Anne, I'm going to assume you're having a real good vent, which is fine. But there are some of us taking part in the "peer reviewed" thread that are also taking part in the CM threads. Those kind of wild generalisations are unfair to those of us who culture an open mind when it comes to dog training. I take it just as personally as I did the notorious 'treat dispensing' accusation. Neither might have been directed at me, but they both hit home because a) I happen to think CM has a couple of things to say that are helpful to dog owners and b) because I'm a huge proponent of positive training methods and would never do anything else. I don't think that CM and positive training should be mutually exclusive. I appreciate that you feel under attack and offended when entering a training thread on CM and having your credentials questioned, but seriously, I think you have to expect a less than glowing warm greeting when you tell people in a scathing fashion that CM is rubbish and all the rest. I absolutely respect that you feel a need to tell people not to listen to a word CM says, but I don't think you're doing yourself any favours in coming on strong. Sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself is to step back, take a deep breath, and accept that some people won't listen to reason, no matter what that reason might be.

I'm sorry that this has got you so worked up. But to keep it in perspective, the people who fall somewhere in between CM and +R and the people who practice both and the people who have no problem with CM, but train with +R are copping it from both sides. I don't think this is an "us" vs "them" situation because of all those people in the middle. I'm sure I speak for most of the board when I say your training tips are well-received and we're all grateful that you are willing to give advice for free.

I don't care about this new section either way. I feel that if you know that you can control your behavior and words, then you can post on this section with whatever opinions you may have. Just as long as you maintain respect and courtesy to everyone else. I think this new section proves only one thing and that is that you can't make everybody happy. The CM threads were so bad that this became neccessary in order for everyone to have a pleasant conversation or respectful debate. Now that this section is here, some CM fans feel isolated while others love it, postive trainers are unhappy with it and feel it's unfair. There is no way to make everyone here happy. I really think people should just drop it and leave it alone. The section is here, it's not going anywhere, so if you don't like it then just don't post here. Obviously Jamie has been very stressed out and maybe this was the way she thought she could calm things down. Maybe it was to help make things easier for her and so far that doesn't seem to be happening. There are plenty of other sections about training here. This is not the only one. The only people who should really be disappointed are those that contributed to those nasty debates in the past because hopefully, we won't be seeing those anymore. I don't think there's anything wrong with debating, but I think we can all agree that most CM threads got totally out of hand. When you resort to name calling and personal attacks, there's a problem and before anyone starts knocking this new section, I think we should all just stop complaining and see if it actually works in calming things down.

Good post ashland!  I agree and you said it very eloquently.
 
We all need to be calm assertive, calm assertive, calm assertive....[] 

Others are bringing drinks. I was going to bring chocolate.
 
And I wanted to say something cheeky like "3 cheers for CM" but sometimes, people get wound a little tight.
 
Sure, CM represents a lot of traditional training. Some of the basics are, indeed, not new. They are thousands of years old, in some respects. But he is certainly the most visible of some traditional methods, though he does not advocate hitting, ever.
 
So, perhaps, an alternate section or thread could go under the banner of McConnell, since that's the other name that gets mentioned as often, even if other authors are presented. Or, call it Dunbar. That's fine, too.
 
As for people not being happy or not getting what they want all the time, welcome to my world. Imagine working for someone with nowhere near you qualifications or experience and they make mistakes, too. And no one listens to you as the authority on code compliance, even though the state requires it. After a day of putting with such stuff, it's nice to visit the placid, tranquil place of i-dog.[]

Jamie,
 
I appologize for my part in raising your BP. When I started this thread, it's was mostly in jest (notice the lol at the end of the first sentence), but did want to vent a bit on the fact that posting on threads that contained the letters CM was getting a bit risky. It is sad that we can't discuss a subject (any subject) rationally and that it has to come down to separating subject matter just to keep the peace.
I do appreciate what you do here for all of us and know that it's a HUGE responsiblity.
Honestly, I didn't expect the responses that I got and hate that it turned ugly, yet again.
 
 

I don't think this is an "us" vs "them" situation because of all those people in the middle. I'm sure I speak for most of the board when I say your training tips are well-received and we're all grateful that you are willing to give advice for free.

 
Amen to that []
 
It doesn't need to be a strict divide - let's stop focusing on the names of the trainers we are discussing and more on the techniques we like and the dogs we apply them to!

Anne, that post was rude and condescending. It doesn't matter that you have been goaded into this behavior in the past. You need to take responsibility for your own actions if this is going to stop escalating.

I'm happy to respond to any comments via email, but I hardly think it fair to continue your chastisements in a place where I have no ability to respond without angering the admin here.  I do have opinions on CM and his methods, but they are probably best left to private conversation at this point.  

Once more, everyone is allowed BUT check your attitude at the door.
 
This is an area where MEMBERS on this forum can discuss a topic without being harrassed and told how wrong they are...it is no different then religion or politics!
 
Since it couldn't be done in the previous training areas I created an area or "free zone" maybe with the hopes that the controversy would be limited, no one will ever be happy with everything...human nature, participate or not, don't continue to muddy the waters ...move on
 
 
 

wow!.... let me ask a question here, and this one goes to the "middle of the road" folks. Is it just me or does it seem that everytime the subject comes up, and sometimes it doesn't even HAVE to come up, a thread gets turned into a CM folks vs All +R folks thread, and at the end there's no productive advice other than critizicing. The CM folks feel like their personal hero is being misunderstood and attacked as a person (which in some cases is true) and the all +R crowd starts playing victim of some sort, and demonizing the guy. +R people are all against using physical corrections of any kind WE GET IT, and for every question there is a CM episode that dealt with a similar case, we also get that.

In a previous thread I mentioned that once people choose a "corner" they become closed minded, and all these pointless discussions are proof. Some of us try to take/give advice without critizicing for the sake of critizicing a method or practice, so if it makes sense to you use it, if you know something better post it without bashing the previous method, if you have LEGITIMATE (not loaded) questions ask them. What most of us want is enough knowledge out here to be able to make a CHOICE, but it's annoying to start reading a thread and not be able to objectively read what some people are saying because the advice is surrounded by a load of criticism and bickering which ultimately trivializes the actual knowledge that is trying to be communicated.