HELP please, crying and crying - don't want to have to get rid of Trixie

luvmyswissy, did I misread the post? Has this dog bitten humans? More importantly has this dog bitten children? In my opinion any dog that bites humans, especially one that bites children is a danger and a liability thus I would classify it as "red zone".
 
Quote "Today she bit my son's 12 year old friend on the mouth" quote "She bit me once," quote "She has gotten progressively more aggressive" quote "She has many fears" quote "She has been snapping more and more, with adults and kids" quote "We usually can't approach her in her crate or she will growl. " end quotes
 
 What is your definition of a red zone dog? Maybe I am just over cautious, I own large breed dogs and they are not allowed to growl or bite anyone. If one bites a child I will most likely put it to sleep. Mind you I go out of my way to make certain I never have to make this decision. eople need to be responsible when owning an animal that shows aggressive tendencies. If they were we would hear less stories about dogs biting eople!
 
 ardon me if I come across as rude but I am amazed! How many bites does it take?
  I am not suggesting that the dog can#%92t be rehabilitated only that caution should be used, professional help should be sought out and the dog should not be dumped at the shelter if it doesn#%92t work out.

A red zone dog IMO is a vicious dog.  A dog who will bite anyone at anytime.  There are plently of dogs that bite becasue they have not been trained properly or dogs who have fear or resource aggression, that dosen't make them a red zone dog!!  Heck my 6 week old 1.5 pug bite my husband and he got 7 stitches because of his stupidity. 

I have a resource guarder who is 142 pounds and could possbily bite if not managed and trained that dosen't make him a red zone dog.  This dog has bitten but under the circumstances of under supervision and no training not becasue he is a vicous beast.

"There are plenty of dogs that bite because they have not been trained properly or dogs who have fear or resource aggression"
 
 Yes there are, just like there are plenty of news reports about the untrained dogs that bite. It is publicity that the dog world does not need. The time to begin working with a problem dog showing fear or resource regression is when it begins growling or behaving in an aggressive manner. After it has lashed out and bitten numerous people I think the situation has reached a new level. I guess red zone really means the ones that actually hurt someone bad. Maybe tear a leg off, or an arm.
 
 Twins2set, I sympathize with your situation. I state what I say with the utmost sympathy and compassion. Please be cautious. A dog that has bitten is very likely to bite again. Please seek professional help if you intend to keep this dog. If you cannot keep it please put it to sleep. It is not wrong it is called being responsible. I hope you are successful in your attempts to conquer this problem.

Mod's Note:

The OP has already started a new thread seeking a behaviorst and asks for your help in selecting one:http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=421272

To continue a discussion regarding the nature of "red zone" dogs, please open a new thread.

Thanks for your consideration for the OP.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I TRULY do not mean this to be unkind.  But, gosh, it wouldn't hurt to do a little NILF with the kids as well......and probably the hubby.  It really sounds like you've got a zoo going on there with little control over any of the players.  I honestly don't mean this to sound unkind, but, man, I'd go out of my mind with all the fighting and bickering[:-].    A certain amount is normal and healthy, but gosh, when you can't leave them alone long enough to walk the dog?  That would scare the tar right out of me!

Please listen to the wise "just an old broad" on the forum.  You really cannot keep this dog if you can't control your household.  She is food aggressive and the book Cita suggested is great, but just because you might be able to get her to be less aggressive when you take something from her, doesn't mean someone else's child will be able to.
This is a dog that cannot, under any circumstances, ever be left alone with food and children.  If the kids are eating, she needs to be in her crate.  If she's enjoying a Kong, she needs to be in her crate.  Otherwise, sooner or later, someone may get bitten again. 
And, frankly, if your husband is the type who kicks dogs, you have no business having one in that household unless he is willing to curb his temper and help you train and manage the dog properly.

Wow...

I don't know how many kids you all have, but with two sets of twins, 10 and 13, 3 of which are girls, it does tend to get a bit chaotic at times. This is unavoidable! I didn't mean to come across as having no control over my children! We certainly have house rules that they must follow, and they are very kind to Trixie and don't pester her and are not mean to her in any way. I will sit them down as soon as I find a good behaviorist (still working on that, BTW) and explain to them the seriousness of everyone following the new rules with Trixie.

I appreciate all the kind words and responses, but I just wanted to set the record straight. I am feeling like you all think my household is completely unmanageable! Not so. Just a bit busy and full of kids.

I spoke with a dog behaviorist today. She seemed to know what she was talking about, but I'm not sure I liked her on the phone. One red flag was she told me the kids really didn't need to be here when she came. Don't you think she would want to involve the whole family?

Well on a level I can perhaps understand why she didn't think the kids needed to be there. It will be your job to rely what she says to you to the kids. It may be that the kids being around will simply be a distraction from the business that she really wants to get down to with the adults and the dog. You guys have the control in the house so as long as you know what to do and say as far as the kids are concerned, you can handle that part without her.

Did you ask her why she didn't think it was necessary?

Again, I didn't mean to sound harsh and I'm sorry if it did.  Our 3 boys were 19.5 and then 11 months apart...blended family so I know how chaotic it can be.  However, one of my sons is ADHD and because of that we had to have a great deal of structure in the home....heck, I'm ADHD so *I* need that structure as well.  And, I always worked full time.  And had dogs, and cats, and whatever else the boys dragged home!

Your description honestly sounded to me like the inmates were running the asylum and perhaps that was just your frustration with the whole situation talking.  It can be frustrating raising kids and having a dog that is less than perfect doesn't help.  But, none of us or them are perfect, thats the problem.  I honestly would NOT allow this dog around your childrens friends, period.  The boy who was bitten was truly in the wrong to walk up and hug a dog, especially one that had a special treat.  Which is why I say that the kids need as much training as the dog....always.

Your description honestly sounded to me like the inmates were running the asylum and perhaps that was just your frustration with the whole situation talking.

 
I so totally agree with glenmar's comment.  Please know that even my 2 children have had fights and one or both have been hurt by the other at times, so no one is perfect or has all the answers and this includes me. 
 
I did not mean to imply that you have no rules or limits in your home.  However, every child and every animal is different and some are ok with a few rules and some require more. 
 
I can only imagine what it is like to have 2 sets of twins three years apart.  My house can seem choatic at times too with only 2 active teenagers and working parents.  Stressfull too!
But do try to evaluate if your children might benefit from if not having more rules/limits perhaps more structure (that is more of a schedule--things happen in consistent manner daily, they have a choice of only 2 or 3 activities at certain times of the day, etc.; this kind of thing)  as you address your dog's aggression.  My earlier comment about your children's fighting on your dog was simply to say if you have a fear aggressive dog and the children are fighting, hitting each other, and screaming your dog is most likely to feel scared and not as secure in that environment.
 
My husband and I fight frequently and it bothers my dog.  He gets all nervous and slinks off to his crate or under the dinning room table (a place we call his den, because he enjoys laying or sleeping there throughout the day). 
 
Good Luck in your efforts to locate a trainer and retraining your dog.[]

Twins2sets, how is Trixie doing?

You poor, poor thing.

The advice so far has been so good I don't have anything to add, really. I just wanted to say that you've got a tough road ahead of you if you want to keep Trixie. It sounds like you can definitely improve her behaviour, but it's going to take a lot of time and work, and you have to be able to keep it up. I'm wondering if you're really able to do this in your current situation with all the kids. My family went through a similar thing with a dog who turned aggressive despite NILIF programs, socialisation, training, and plenty of exercise from puppyhood. At the time, my mother accepted that she didn't have enough time at her fingertips to work with the dog as much as she would need to, and she decided the risk of having him was too great to her family, visitors, and other dogs in the family. Fortunately, his breeder was prepared to take him back and find him a more appropriate home, so he wasn't PTS as far as we know. I just wanted to tell you that sometimes the best decision for the dog and your family is to remove the dog from the situation she obviously finds so distressing. You're not a bad person if you decide you can't realistically find the time to work with the dog, control the environment at home to the extent required, as well as ensuring the safety of your family.

Having said that, I hope you can help Trixie, because she's obviously not very happy right now and her prospects aren't bright if you can't help her. It's never nice to see a dog destroyed for not fitting in, especially when you weren't the one the started her on that path of fearful aggression. You've got a tough decision to make, and we'll support you no matter what the outcome is. I just hope you can find the right answer.

never mind

I agree with houndlove about the behaviorist. I know if I had to have a behaviorist come to my house to deal with my dog's behaviorial issues, I would not have my children there. My children are young and a complete distraction for things like this. I don't take my children with when I take Ella to training. I teach my children what my trainer has taught me as it is my job to do that. I can probably relay that information better to them than my trainer could.


I wish you luck. I really do. I think it's wonderful that you came here to get advice.

I, personally, have zero tolerance for dogs that bite humans. And I even know that a lot of the times that dogs bite, it's the human's fault. But I have a dog that is a breed that does not have room for human bites on her record.
The behaviorist might be strict with your dog and with you at first because any good behaviorist is going to do NILIF with that dog at first. That should be implemented right off the bat. That means that dog works for EVERYTHING. But, I think (but I'm not a behaviorist by any means) that the behaviorist should be rewarding for good behavior.

Just be careful with the behaviorists' methods of working with your dog. Strictness is one thing; treating your dog's aggression WITH aggression is another. Believe me, I KNOW. I chose a poor behaviorist to work with my dog once and he did damage to her. I had to find a new one and we're working on trying reverse what he did.
Not to freak you out, just be careful. Especially with a fearful dog.

TRIXIE - UPDATE:

Thanks for all the emails and well wishes. What great support there is on these boards!

We had a new trainer come in yesterday - and I must say, I picked a good one this time. She was very patient...she showed absolutely no aggression with Trixie, and took things slowly. She brought out the clicker (she's big on clicker training), and Trixie was afraid of it, and she decided for us to just use the word "yes" as a marker rather than try to desensitize her to the clicker.

She is very much reward based. She had Trixie behaving so well with her. She was VERY impressed with Trixie's intellect. Trixie learns very quickly (we think there may be some border collie in there somewhere). She was amazed and called her "brilliant", and said that she was very smart compared to most of the dogs she trains. Made me very proud!!!

She gave us some great ideas and hopefully it will help. She said it is a long process, but that it is definitely not a lost cause at this point!!

So now it's just teaching the kids the rules and making sure everyone is on the same page, and being CONSISTENT!!

That is really really wonderful to hear! I wish you the best of luck....now, how 'bout some pictures of your little einstein? []