Dog Community

HELP please, crying and crying - don't want to have to get rid of Trixie

Posted : 8/6/2007 11:41:57 PM

Hi,

I have a 2 year old pointer mix. She is sweet and lovable, smart and playful. But she has MANY problems, and today was the last straw.

Today she bit my son's 12 year old friend on the mouth. Split open his lip and pulled out one of the wires on his braces (which actually probably helped - might have been worse if she didn't get caught on the wire). He didn't meed stitches, thank God. He has a huge fat lip and some orthodontic work to get done...and it scared him half to death. He was afraid of dogs to begin with but was finally starting to have fun playing with her.

She had her kong with peanut butter in it, and I usually either put her in her crate when she has it or tell everyone to stay away from her, but the kids weren't around when I gave it to her, and I forgot to tell them. He went up to her to hug her and she snapped.

I feel SO horrible right now. I am in tears. The mother was very understanding, but I can't believe this happened. We don't want to have to give her away or put her to sleep because we love her so much. But I can't have her around any children anymore.

Some history:

*We got Trixie from a rescue when she was 4 months old. From the beginning she seemed scared, but we thought it was just due to the fact that she was in a new place. She didn't want to go outside or walk on a leash, but soon she came around.

*She bit me once, when she was about 10 months old. She had a rawhide and I tried to take it out of her mouth.

*She has gotten progressively more aggressive. After she was accidently shocked when I was trying to train her on the invisible fence (my fault), she would not let anyone touch her collar (I guess she associated it with the electric fence collar). She wouldn't go outside willingly for a long time after that, either.

*She also began to have problems at the vet - whenever she goes, she has to be sedated, because she is so out of control with them - tries to bite, poops and pees all over, screeches, etc. She is VERY scared. They can't even get a muzzle on her.

*She has many fears. She is afraid of noises and large trucks. She FLIPS out and tries to run the other way if a truck comes near us when we are walking (and we live next to a construction site!!).

*She has been snapping more and more, with adults and kids. If anyone touches her collar, or bothers her when she's sleeping, or comes near her when she has a treat, it is common for her to growl and show teeth. If they don't back away she will sometimes snap at them. It also tends to happen when she is in her crate at night and we try to get her to go outside. Sometimes she won't leave the crate because she's tired and cranky. We usually can't approach her in her crate or she will growl.

*Once about a year ago my daughter got bitten on the mouth (very slightly) when she hugged Trixie while she was resting. It wasn't bad, but very upsetting, and the kids have learned when to stay away from her, and her warning signs. I should have known back then.

*Different people provoke different reactions. Strangers are either jumped on and licked, barked at/growled at with a raised mohawk, or she cowers away (rarely).

*She has separation anxiety. We left her last week at my husband's office (he owns his own business) when we went away, and the 7 women employees took care of her. She had diarrhea all over the office every day. She alternated between sweet and friendly and aggressive. I don't want to leave her at a kennel when we go away (since she has obvious issues), but my relatives don't want to watch her anymore, since she will get cranky with them and you just don't know what her mood will be like at any time.

*We had a dog behaviorist come out last year and spend the day with us. He pretty much agreed with Caesar Milan's approach. He had great ideas, but when it came down to applying them, it was very hard for us and I didn't keep up with it like I should have

. While he was here, he tried to clip her nails and she freaked out so bad and snarled and snapped and eventually bit him on the hand.

Bottom line is - I don't want this to happen again. I feel very lucky that it was his mouth, not his eyes, or face...it could have been much, much worse, which is SO scary.

My husband and I talked and pretty much decided that it is time to give her away (if any place will take her - maybe there is a place that takes on dogs like this??). It KILLS me to do this, and the kids will never forgive me, they love her SO much, especially my son. I totally dread their reactions, it makes me so sad. I just don't know what else to do.

Is there ANYTHING I can try before we need to go to this extreme? We have 4 kids (2 sets of twins ages 10 and 13). There are kids in and out of the house all the time, and I would hate to have to keep Trixie in the crate all the time when friends were over, but it's obvious at this point that I cannot trust her around children.

My kids will say that she bit because she was guarding her kong, and if you just stay away from her when she has a treat, everything will be fine...that if you let her have her space when she needs it, she won't bite. But I can't make exceptions for all of it. For the most part she is a great dog. She follows me around all day and lays at my feet...gives so many kisses and hugs, knows lots of neat tricks, plays hide and seek with us and other cute stuff... She does have bad habits though like jumping up on counters, tables and people...stealing food, etc. I have tried to break her of this, but maybe I am not consistent enough in my approach, I don't know.

ANYWAY, sorry this was so long. WHAT should I do????? Please help. I need to make a decision and stop crying.

mondayblues

Posted : 8/7/2007 12:19:01 AM

Did you do anything at all about the resource guarding before? Has your dog received any type of obedience training? How much exercise does she get?

I think you should see another behaviorist -- I don't know what methods the previous one you consulted used, but I strongly suggest contacting someone who uses positive methods. In the meantime, implement strict NILIF. Please also get a copy of "Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding" by Jean Donaldson. You should also read [linkthis[/link]>http://www.inch.com/~dogs/separationanxiety.html]this[/link] website to learn more about managing separation anxiety.

Here are more links on resource guarding:
[linkhttp://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/articles/resource-guarding/]Resource Guarding[/link]
[linkhttp://www.kerryblues.info/WDJ/SHARE.HTML]Thanks for Sharing by Pat Miller[/link]

Good luck with your dog and with whatever you decide to do. Please update us on how it goes.

Dave Hill

Posted : 8/7/2007 12:47:45 AM

I have a pointer mix too and she can also be a little skittish and fearful. I agree with mondayblues that you should address the resource guarding first--it sounds like your worst encounters have involved protecting resources. The Jean Donaldson book is a great resource. Avoid physically removing treats and other high value items from her---especially if they're in her mouth. Get into the habit of "trading" for something of higher value and she'll learn that surrendering items isn't the end of the world. I'd also avoid hugs and I'd definitely tell the kids not to give hugs to your dog. Most dogs actually don't like to be hugged and it's especially true for dogs that are fearful. Be sure that she's getting plenty of exercise and lots of walks. Work on building her confidence by exposing her to new experiences gradually.

Chuffy

Posted : 8/7/2007 4:45:20 AM

OK, first: Always feed meals and treats in her crate. Always. I do this with ours who have never shown the slightest hint of aggression. Its just more pleasant for them to know they will be left in peace while they eat. It will mean everyone is SAFE and it will help to build her confidence. Animals are vulnerable when they let their guard down to eat. So if she is fearful anyway, the last thing she needs is someone approaching her while she is eating. It is not NECESSARILY "possessiveness".

Second: most dogs don't like being hugged, athough some tolerate it better than others. Don't allow children to hug her. Explain she does not like it and show them other ways of showing affection in ways the dog is comfy with.

These measures eliminate at least some of your problems. Shop around for a different behaviourist. Most behaviourists will LISTEN to the dog and read their body language well enough to be able to avoid a bite. It doesn't sound like that one was up to much. I don't understand why he was trying to clip her nails?

I don't think you need to get rid of her... I think you just need to be able to understand her better. I don't think she sounds dangerous as in nasty dangerous... just scared and misunderstood. Although I grant you that that can be just as dangerous in its own way. Ultimately it's your family, your kids and your risk.... you have to decide what you are comfortable with.

Good luck in whatever you decide. Come back and update us on what you decide?

glenmar

Posted : 8/7/2007 5:19:21 AM

Wow. First off, you can't just rehome a dog with a bite history. She likely will be put down upon surrender. If you can live with that........

It sounds very much to me as if this dog, who is nervous and skittish already is in an environment where she doesn't feel safe. Kids need as much trainings as the dog does, and kids need to be taught to respect the animals needs as well. You don't bother a dog that is sleeping, or eating. We raised three kids in a houseful of critters and never had issues, because my children were taught from the get go to respect the animals. And the same went for their friends. If they couldn't respect my animals needs not to be grabbed at, hugged, bothered when they were eating/sleeping, then they didn't need to be in my home. This probably sounds quite harsh, and I truely don't mean it to be, but everyone in the household has to be part of the solution.

It is quite likely that she growls when approached in her crate because she is safeguarding the ONLY spot in the house where she feels safe. You, and the kids, need to work to expand that safety zone, by respecting her need to be left alone sometimes.

Most dogs don't like being hugged, fewer like being hugged when they have a treat. This is resource guarding at it's finest. Yes NILF, training and a behavioralist, along with a visit to the vet (quite possible that there is a thyroid issue) will help, but EVERYONE in the home must realize that she isn't Lassie, and that she isn't a stuffed animal with no needs or desires of her own. So, again, the training has to be for ALL members of the household.

When I bring an animal home, I make a commitment to that animal for it's lifetime. And when I run into serious issues, I ask myself, what would I do if this were my human child, and go from there. I personally take that commitment to an animal as seriously as I do a commitment to a child.

houndlove

Posted : 8/7/2007 8:40:47 AM

Please try to find a behaviorist who takes a *positive approach*. Skittish, fearful dogs like yours do not do well with a Cesar Millan approach. This dog needs a training approach that is 100% hands off, no touching, no collar yanking, no electric shocks--you've already experienced how she reacts to those sorts of things. Some dogs can handle the electric collar/fence training like they were born to it, are unflappable in the face of correction and take it all in stride. Your dog is not one of those, so you need to take a different approach.

But I do think you need to bring a professional in, partly for the dog but partly for you. Your own fear and anguish over the situation is not going to help matters (dogs tend to pick up on those emotions and a fearful dog will see how upset you are and figure there really is indeed something to be afraid of) and bringing a pro in will help you feel more confident and more positive. Just please find someone who stresses a hands-off positive-reinforcement style of rehab and training.

Regarding the incident, I agree with everyone else and their advice. I just wanted to throw out there that bringing in a behaviorist with a different approach than the one you had previously would be a very good thing for everyone, I think. If you can tell us where you live, there may be some members here who can recomend someone for you.

twins2sets

Posted : 8/7/2007 9:13:31 AM

Thanks for your quick responses. I have decided to give it one last ditch effort and try to change her. Like I said, I don't want to give up on her, but I also don't want to have to crate her every single time we have a friend over. Sometimes we have sleepovers, and it would mean either crating her or keeping her in one room for practically the whole time, for I just don't trust her or the children with her, especially younger kids, although we don't have many of them around anymore.

We go to Disney in November, and if we still have her, I am concerned about what to do with her. Like I said, relatives have given up on watching her because her moods are so unpredictable. I don't want to put her in a kennel because it will really put her over the edge, plus I am afraid she will bite someone there. And I can't have any neighborhood kids come in obviously.

FourIsCompany

Posted : 8/7/2007 9:22:00 AM

I don't have anything to add to the excellent advice you've been given here. I just wanted to say how sorry I am for your situation. That must be just awful for you, her and the boy who was bitten. And I appreciate your willingness to do keep trying .

Just 2 things:
Don't rehome her. Don't put another family through what you're going through.
I would keep children AWAY from her until she is getting what she needs. You're really fortunate the mother was so understanding. Most wouldn't be.

Again, I'm so sorry!

lostcoyote

Posted : 8/7/2007 9:28:51 AM

We had a dog behaviorist come out last year and spend the day with us. He pretty much agreed with Caesar Milan's approach. He had great ideas, but when it came down to applying them, it was very hard for us and I didn't keep up with it like I should have

what were his ideas and if they were great, then why did you and your husbund not follow though? not enough time? his great ideas didn't work? if not, you can try another behaviorist/rehabilitator but YOU MUST follow through and make an effort - otherwise, it's pointless to keep a dog pinned up because it will only increase in it's level of frustration.

sorry if these words seem harsh but when i see someone say something like "I didn't keep up with it like I should have", i end up shaking my head asking things like why not?

twins2sets

Posted : 8/7/2007 9:49:36 AM

Oh, to answer your questions:

* Exercise:
During the school year, I walk her every day after the kids are on the bus. In the summer, not so much. I have rarely walked her this summer because it's so hot, the kids fight and I don't like to leave them home alone together for too long, and we are always busy. I realize we should definitely walk her more. I feel like she is worse when she has less exercise (but still bad when she gets it, too). I have tried to put her on the treadmill, and at first she loved it but then she stopped moving and I would have to pull her on the leash to keep her on, which is not fun, so I stopped doing that.

*Obedience training:
She has taken a class. Didn't seem to help, and she was the only dog there that barked at the other dogs and people. She pretty much knew everything already - I just did it mainly for reinforcement and socialization.

*Resource Guarding:
No, I haven't done much about this. I don't know what to do when she growls. There are two opinions on this - correct her or ignore it, taking it as a warning, trying to prevent bites. And the opinions seem to be about 50/50! So I have been inconsistent, unfortunately, sometimes a stern "No", other times ignoring. I really do love her and mean well, but am confused about what to do about things and therefore don't seem to stick to anything. Also, I have traded with her for things, or I have left her alone. Aaaa! Now that I'm typing this I feel really bad, like I have created a monster, and I certainly didn't mean to. I will look into the book. I think I actually have "Scaredy Dog", "Cautious Canine" and "Click to Calm", but never finished reading them. (Again, good intentions).

*Kids:
My kids do know (well, aside from the hugging during normal times, which I will put an end to) to leave her alone while she is sleeping or eating or has a treat. Also if she growls or shows the whites of her eyes (which is often), they leave her alone. It's mostly friends and strangers (adults included) that I have to worry about. If her collar is touched, look out. I have to tell everyone this as they walk in the door.

Also, I have always wondered if the noise in our household affects her. As I said before, the kids fight pretty often, and it can get really loud, at least a couple times a day. When this happens, Trixie usually gets all riled up and starts chasing them and play biting (which is another issue...sigh...and does hurt).

*Professional help:
Do you think I should call my vet for advice? Or would she tell me to put her down? She is a fair doctor and I respect her, but she has seen first hand what Trixie can be like when she is scared. She recommended the first guy to me, but I don't think she knew that he used the Caesar approach, because she has told me before that she doesn't agree with his methods.

If that's not a good idea, how do I find a trainer that specializes in aggression?

Again, thanks for the tips...it is reassuring to see that you all think I should give her another chance to stay with us. I only hope my husband will agree, as he is SO angry right now. That's another thing. He has been too stern with her before, even kicking her once or twice (which I cannot stand and we have fought about this)...so she can be afraid of him at times. I am sure that hasn't helped at all with her issues.

lostcoyote

Posted : 8/7/2007 9:52:54 AM

I only hope my husband will agree, as he is SO angry right now. That's another thing. He has been too stern with her before, even kicking her once or twice (which I cannot stand and we have fought about this)...so she can be afraid of him at times. I am sure that hasn't helped at all with her issues.

Oh ratz, there's another source of your dogs problems.

houndlove

Posted : 8/7/2007 10:11:43 AM

Vets are usually not the best resource for behavioral issues beyond doing physical evaluations (such as thyroid panels) to make sure there's not an organic reason for behavioral issues. It's like the difference between an internal medicine doctor and a psychiatrist. Some vets do specialize in behavioral issues just like some doctors specialize in human behavior issues and we call them psychiatrists. But your average vet probably took a course or two on animal behavior and that was it. They can make recomendations for behaviorists only in as much as some behaviorist or trainer visited their office and left a stack of business cards, or someone they know knows someone who went to someone and they liked him. But they don't usually know enough to make really knowledgable recomendations.

The people on this list are the Big Guns:http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory

Those folks are PhD or DVM level certified applied animal behaviorists. Because there is no "official" liscencing board for animal trainers and behaviorists, anyone can wake up one morning, print up a business card and call themselves a trainer or behaviorist. So you must be very careful to look at the credentials of anyone you hire: where they went to school and what they went to school for, who they have apprenticed and studied under and what THAT person's qualifications are, how many years they've been doing this, what their own dogs are all about (for instance, I would not hire a behaviorist for a fearful dog who mostly worked with police dogs or protection dogs--those kinds of dogs are the polar opposite of what you've got).

Anyway, if I were you, I'd locate the nearest applied animal behaviorist from that list, write them a brief email saying you've got a fear-aggressive dog in a house full of children and you would like to know if there is anyone in your local area that they could recommend to you. And of course if you have someone from that list in your local area, so much the better.

ETA: There are a ton of red flags in the run-down you gave of what's been going on and I think you also already know that something is very wrong with how the household is dealing with the dog. So, I don't want to harp on that. But things do have to change and the entire family has to be on board or this is not going to end well. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you and I can sense that you're in a pretty different place with this dog than your husband and your kids. You feel the burden laying entirely on you, and that has also got to change. Once you decide where you want to go next, a family meeting needs to be called and everyone in the house has got to understand that with this dog, this is a life or death issue. It is a less than ideal situation to begin with, having a very fearful pointer (there are some lines of pointers that are known for this trait--it's not desirable but it does pop up) in a chaotic house with a lot of kids coming and going and a lot of noise, but we deal with the cards we're dealt, not the ones we'd wished we had. It can be a growing experience for the entire family, it can teach your kids empathy and responsibility, it can indeed bring your entire family to a whole new understanding of one another and the dog and of living things in general and can teach acceptance and perseverance and patience. All wonderful, important lessons. I know you must feel like a lone voice crying in the darkness right now which is why I urge you to find a professional--the best you can afford, who can back you up and be an impartial outside observer and make you feel a little less alone.

espencer

Posted : 8/7/2007 10:13:13 AM

ORIGINAL: twins2sets

Oh, to answer your questions:

* Exercise:
During the school year, I walk her every day after the kids are on the bus. In the summer, not so much. I have rarely walked her this summer because it's so hot, the kids fight and I don't like to leave them home alone together for too long, and we are always busy. I realize we should definitely walk her more. I feel like she is worse when she has less exercise (but still bad when she gets it, too). I have tried to put her on the treadmill, and at first she loved it but then she stopped moving and I would have to pull her on the leash to keep her on, which is not fun, so I stopped doing that.

Big red flag here, is always better to be bad and walk than to be worse and not to walk, not walking turns into frustration, frustration turns into aggression sometimes, if you can get rid of at least one factor that might be helping your dog to become aggressive that would be great so you can start from there [

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twins2sets

Posted : 8/7/2007 10:35:24 AM

Houndlove, thank you for your kind words (even if they made me cry, LOL). I do feel alone on this; my husband and my mom say to give her up, my kids say to keep her but they are going to have a very hard time understanding and changing their behaviors, and I am caught in the middle between the two. This is just so hard and I just love her so much that I can't imagine her not being here with us - she is so much a part of the family. But I also can't live like this anymore, and if we can't get her to change I won't have any more options. [

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snownose

Posted : 8/7/2007 10:37:07 AM

Yikes....so many issues......but, I would go insane with 4 kids in the house and friends in and out, kids fighting.......no control......the dog gets touched, hugged...even when she doesn't want it.
Feeding treats and food in the crate is a must in this situation.......time for exercise and training is a must also.....time alone, not with 15 kids around.....
Your life style might be a little too busy for the dog, but you took on the responsibility, and you must follow through......
I am sure you think you are doing your best, but by reading your post I got the feeling that there is no structure, and the dog is just in there somewhere expected to behave......I take in rescues and one of the most important things is a structured, well run environment.....