Serious aggression issues- friend can't afford a behaviorist.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Serious aggression issues- friend can't afford a behaviorist.

    I really need advice for my best friend. Her Coonhound has some major issues. I'll give background info, so this will be long. I REALLY, REALLY hope someone with training experience will take the time to read this and help.

    She got him from an animal shelter about a year ago. He had been at the shelter for a few months. When she first brought him home he was extremely thin and very shy/quiet. I don't think he had ever been in a house before; he would just stand in a corner of the room with his head down. He wouldn't lay down, he would just stand there for a really long time. He was really quiet and basically like a bump on a long. Over a few weeks his personality started to come out... he started showing his stubborn hound side by pulling on the leash and basically trying to bulldoze his way into doing whatever he wanted. [:o] I tried to help my friend with a few things- like making him wait at the door instead of dragging her inside. I held the leash and he tried to bulldoze his way past me into the house. It took a LONG time, at least 20 minutes, before he just sat there and I was able to go into the house and then let him in. My friend says that she's kept this up and makes him wait before getting out of the car, letting him in the house and things like that. She also taught him to sit and makes him sit for his food. Those are things that I think she's done right. Here are things I think she's done wrong:

    * Lets him sleep in bed with her.

    * Lets him on the furniture.

    * Pays attention to him when he's pestering her for attention.

    * Her entire time at home revolves around him.

    So here are the issues he has:

    - He guards his food and toys.

    - He's aggressive towards strangers (only at home) and especially towards men.

    - He's a pest when my friend is on the phone. He does anything he can think of for attention, including whining and chewing on things he normally doesn't.

    Now for a description of his behavior. When my husband and I go over he does the extremely loud hound baying and has a wild look in his eyes. [:-]He would keep some distance and come over to us when we were sitting. At one point I tried to hand him a treat and he tried to snatch it out of my hand. The technique I learned a long time ago was that when a dog does that you turn your hand away and then a few seconds later, offer the treat again and if they try to snatch it again, then you repeat. What has happened with other dogs is that they take the treat more gently. With this particular dog, he started LUNGING at me, and on the last attempt snarled and showed his teeth. [&:] So at that point I asked my friend what happened when she tried to give treats to him. He took the treat nicely. out of her hand. So what I'm gathering from this is that her dog has some major fear aggression and also food possessiveness.

    I forgot to mention that a few months after the treat incident he growled at my friend when she reached to pick up his plate. Since then he has also growled at her involving toys. She's never tried to take a bone, but she's almost positive he would bite her if she did.

    So backtracking a little, one day a few months after she got the dog, my husband and I were over for dinner. Things went fine and after dinner we all went to the living room and were sitting on the couch. So the dog was fairly friendly towards us and we petted him. I went to the bathroom and a minute later I heard- "OWWWW" from my husband. Apparently he had stood up and the dog lunged and bit him. [:(] Luckily my husband was able to move quickly and the dog only grazed his thumb. I rushed into the room, trying to wrap my head around what happened. I said to take him to the other room and my friend took him by the collar and tried to move him to the other room. He was being really stubborn and digging in his heels resisting. My friend is not strong enough to handle him and he takes advantage of it. I gave his back end a shove and he looked surprised, like "what, someone can make me move?" and he went in the other room where she put him in his crate.

    Since then, whenever we go over he's kept in another room. The kitchen is separated by half a barn door and he stands on the bed barking at us when we come in. We all ignore him and he usually quiets down after about 20 minutes. BUT, anytime my husband or I get up or do anything, he starts up barking again. He's also whines incessantly.... so it's kind of hard to talk or enjoy ourselves. Whenever I'm on the phone with my friend, he does a lot of whining and barking in the background.

    So now, the biggest issue is that she has a boyfriend and the dog is of course being aggressive to him. When this guy comes over, the dog rushes at him and the guy tries to intimidate him back- standing taller than him and telling him "No!". The dog shows his teeth and nips at him, but yesterday for the first time he bit him- tearing his pants and grazing his skin. When I talked to my friend on the phone tonight I told her that I think she needs to handle things completely differently because I think aggression breeds aggression. I told her that I would keep a leash on the dog and if he is aggressive to her boyfriend in anyway, to (silently and calmly but firmly) lead him to the other room for a "timeout". She said that she would try that, but she's afraid he's going to bite HER and that she knows he won't just willingly go into the other room, that he'll fight her and she'll have to drag him. That won't be easy, because like I said, he's stronger than she is. [&:]

    So anyway, I've told her a bunch of times that she needs help from a behaviorist, but she's on a tight budget and can't afford it. I told her I would do some research online and I decided that this would be the best place to get advice because I know we have some really good trainers her. In anyone has read through this whole thing, THANK YOU!

    Edited to remove dog's name for some privacy. [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Bump. And wanted to add, is there maybe a certain book that you would recommend?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I hate to be the bringer of bad news but your friend obviously is in over her head. If she cannot afford professional help, then she can not afford to keep him. Since your friend sounds like an inexperienced dog owner, she is going to need help saving this dog. This dog has multiple behavioral problems going on simultaneously, although each can be dealt with and controlled by someone with experience, the question is whether your friend is able to do what is necessary and secondly willing to do what is necessary to save the dog.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I agree that she's in over her head and needs help... I should mention that she's not even considering having him put to sleep or giving him up. And also that he's perfectly fine in public, at the vet, etc. It's on his home turf that he becomes aggressive.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Well besides the fact that the dog runs the household (which is your friend's fault) he has territorial aggression (probably as a result of his temperament and history). However, in order to live with this dog, your friend will have to completely change the way she interacts with the dog in every aspect of his day, something I feel that she is not willing to do.
     
    Your friend falls into the category who claims she wants help but is not willing to do what needs to be done. Ultimately what will happen is that the dog will continue to bite people until the wrong person gets bit and they are either sued civily or will have to put the dog down. I truly feel sorry for the dog.
    • Gold Top Dog
    This sounds like resource guarding, which is really responsive to training.

    Your friend should get a copy of "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson. This hardly sounds hopeless, based on your description, to me.
    • Gold Top Dog
    As to the food aggression, she should get this bookhttp://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB740
    As to the leadership issueshttp://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=dtb479

    Some articles that may help your friend identify her dog's problem more accurately:
    www.k9aggression.com
    http://www.petplace.com/dogs/territorial-aggression-toward-people/page1.aspx
    http://www.shilohgtf.com/Aggression.htm



    • Gold Top Dog
    Wow, at-a-loss, you are quite a pessimist!

    I understand the situation with your own dog as you wrote about it. I have had to put a dog down because of aggression issues myself, and empathize with your situation.

    But I have to say that serious aggression is a pretty rare occurence, and that aggression in dogs is rather like aggression in people. Just like everyone is aggressive sometimes but sometimes it's pathological... most agression in dogs is relatively normal and solvable.

    It doesn't seem so helpful to assume that everyone is in your shoes. It doesn't seem helpful for this dog, who will probably be fine. Resource guarding is a lot like predation--it's normal dog behavior--animals who don't do it in the wild are the ones who are in trouble...

    People are capable of changing their behavior, and there are lots of resources available to this friend.



    • Gold Top Dog
    at a loss- I agree that right now the dog is running the household, but my friend knows there's a serious problem and is willing to change things.

    fisher and spirit Dogs- thank you thank you thank you!! I'm going to give her those links and book recommendations. I hope to have a positive update in a few months!!
    • Gold Top Dog
    actually I never did an update but I decided not to put the little guy down. The guilt that I may not have done everything I could possibly do to change him outweighed the probability that he was "just a bad seed". I hired a qualified behaviorist and have done a lot of reading on wolf and dog behavior. It saved his life.
     
    The behaviorist was able to pick up on things that I had overlooked. Turns out that the rank order in the past year had been upset because of me now working the midnight shift. Although nothing had changed around the house in my eyes, the whole world had changed in my eyes. So my dog took on the alpha role in my absence during the day time while I was sleeping. By tweaking a few things, my dog is much happier and has much less stress, ultimately a completely different dog.
     
    I am not saying that fixing the problems with the dog is hopeless because it isn't. Actually quite the opposite. I said I feel sorry for dog because when the owner fails to do what is neccessary, the dog is the one that truly loses.
     
    But what she HAS to do is become the leader of her household before anything else can work.
    • Gold Top Dog
    if she is willing to do what is neccessary, then give her this link:
     
    [linkhttp://leerburg.com/articles.htm]http://leerburg.com/articles.htm[/link]
     
    Have her read Groundwork for Establishing Pack Structure with adult dogs: [linkhttp://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm]http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm[/link]
     
    and many of articles on dog aggression that he has on the site.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Sorry, but I don't agree with some of leerburg's harsh "techniques". I've read some of it before.... One thing he recommends for aggression is basically roughing up your dog. [&:]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't advise the leerburg route.  This dog sounds SCARED and I don't think his approach is suited to fearful dogs (???). 

    This is just my thoughts because I have little experience with true aggression.  If I were in your friends shoes I think I would be raising the cash for a behaviourist somehow, but I do have a few thoughts on what might be behind his behaviour and some things she COULD do in response to it... just what I would do if I were in that situation.

    I think fear is the reason the aggression is manifesting on his home turf - because that's where he feels confident enough to challenge those he finds threatening.  And why does he only find MEN threatening?  Either past abuse, or because men are generally more threatening than women - they are bigger, stronger, louder, have deeper voices etc.  So that's why I think it is largely fear-related.

    I think that your friend should implement NILIF as soon as possible and really religiously, so the dog gets NOTHING without working for it.  Perhaps she could hand feed him for a couple of weeks?  I would feed out of 4 or 5 bowls to help combat the food aggression; put a little in the 1st bowl, wait for him to eat, move to the next, repeat.  This helps to get him  to relax about people approaching the bowl because he runs ahead to the next bowl and waits happily and is rewarded by food being put in the bowl. 

    I think keeping the dog seperate with a crate or gate is the best thing for safety's sake.  I think this could be coupled with a tasty packed Kong when male vistors are around, to build a +ve association?

    Your friend should acclimate him gently to a basket muzzle, for the times when he comes into contact with men.  He should be encouraged to poke his nose in with treats put in one end and he should wear it at "happy times" so he doesn't just associate it with men and stressful situations.

    I don't think his crate and his timeout place should be the same - partly because it should not be seen by him as a punishment, but also partly because I think his timeout place should be well away from sight or sound of your friend and her guests and the crate should be available to him (although a little way away from visitors) so as to provide him with a bolt hole, a sense of security and the option of Flight.  I think this is really important - probably THE most important thing, but that is just my opinion.

    Just a suggestion:  If your friend is truly concerned about being bitten when she moves him perhaps EVERYONE could get up and leave the room, leaving him behind?  He should think "Sh*t where did everybody go????"  This takes away any need for physical confrontation and conflict.  If she does lead him out of the room - no pushing or pulling, don't say anything or even look at him.  I think this means less likelihood of getting bitten and also makes the message "uncluttered".
     
    Edit to add:  Note heavy use of  I thinks!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Chuffy- Thank you so much for your very well thought out post. [:)] You're definitely right that it's fear based. I read all of the articles that Spirit Dogs listed and the Pet Place one has a description of territorial fear aggression that fits him to a "T". He doesn't have the confidence to be aggressive to people away from his home turf. I think he's afraid of men because they're taller with louder voices, etc. There's no indication of him being handshy or anything like that, so it seems to me like he was neglected and unsocialized rather than abused.

    Your suggestion of everyone getting up and leaving the room is good because, like you said, it doesn't involve any confrontation at all. The only bad part I could see is that he might think he succeeded in "chasing off" my friend's boyfriend..I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into that though.

    I'll definitely forward your suggestion of a basket muzzle and how she could introduce it to him. I know her and I'm almost positive she would feel mean having him wear a muzzle. Of course it's DEFINITELY better for everyone involved if he's muzzled, so hopefully she'll do it.

    Anyway, thank you again for your post!!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Tamara,
     
    Your friend's dog is a hound, and that presents alot of issues in itself.  There are very special needs that hounds have as far as training goes.  Hounds are stubborn as heck but are also "soft."  They just plain don't respond well to harsh techniques.  You might want to PM houndlove (Cressida) as she's got scenthounds and Ann (spiritdogs) as well for any other tips they might have. 
     
    Tell your friend that intimidating a hound NEVER WORKS.  And hounds NEVER FORGET, they might forgive but they won't forget any harsh treatment.