I need help with this... (Aggression)

I think, if anything, humans are guilty of not understanding  the vulnerable situations that they put their dog in.  Even during such an innocent thing  as a walk. We think it is innocent. Dogs know differently. They know they are vulnerable.

And I do believe, when a dog has continously told their human that they are not comfortable in a situation, (barking, lunging)  yet the human insists they be comfortable (or the human is unaware of how uncomfortable their dog is).. and keep allowing these situations....the dog then understands that their human is not reliable enough to protect them.

 And will begin to protect themselves.

It is a lack of awareness if one thinks that all is right in the world as long as their dog is leashed and they have their dog under control. (I used to think this way)

JM - What would you suggest I do if you were in my situation?

I do believe your dog has the beginnings of leash reactivity - even the one time he was off leash, you had a hold of his collar, which is the same thing really.
 
There are some really helpful threads about leash reactivity on here - do a search and see what you come up with. In short - you need to manage his environment which means somehow, someway, avoiding those off leash dogs running at him. There are many dogs who feel defensive about a dog running at them while they are restrained - so don't feel bad! And you may think that dog running at you looks friendly and whatnot, but if Max isn't really well-socialized, all he sees is a possible threat running at him full-tilt with nowhere to go.
 
When you walk Max and another dog is nearby (on leash and under control), does he lunge? Bark aggressively?

This is what I have done and do...religiously.

I do not put my dog in any situation where he has to deal with idiot dog owners.  Be them leashed dogs or unleashed.

Zeus is only freaky about loose dogs, but I have come across just as many idiots with leashed dogs.

I do not need...and WILL NOT ALLOW, this to also become a leashed dog thing.

So, I watch him, listen to him.  When he is not comfortable, I move him to a safe spot.

He has told me many times that something wasn't right, and I have come close to walking him into some very dangerous situations, yet my instinct would say, hey, he  knows (or smells) something that I don't. And I would move him toward home.  Just to see later in the distance, that we did indeed barely escape a mishap.

And never EVER will I not have an escape route for him. These days when I have him "out", my truck (with the back open) is within a safe distance here I can kennel him up quickly.

Never ever do I trust that another dog owner, leashed or unleashed, can or will control their dog.  It is not worth my dog to find out.  I declare them all incompetent, whether they are or not.  My job is to protect my dog, not to make friends.

Some may say that I am paranoid.  And that is okay with me.

 Go out and face your fear they say...I went that route. One day I had 3 large loose dogs surrounding us. All due to this 'crap" that I had swallowed.

 There was little doubt that my dog was going to be killed.  The only thing that saved us was by this time, he had learned to trust me.

He moved when I told him to.  He was quiet when I told him to be. (which was a miracle) He navigated fence lines and even hid when I told him.

When we did arrive home safely...I cried like a baby.  Not only due to the fact that I came close to losing my dog...but he had trusted me to make the decisions.

 I finally came to my senses and decided that my dog was worth more to me than other peoples opinion.

It's not always about what you do...sometimes it is about what you know.

ORIGINAL: nGoldenm

JM - What would you suggest I do if you were in my situation?

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

I do believe your dog has the beginnings of leash reactivity - even the one time he was off leash, you had a hold of his collar, which is the same thing really.

There are some really helpful threads about leash reactivity on here - do a search and see what you come up with. In short - you need to manage his environment which means somehow, someway, avoiding those off leash dogs running at him. There are many dogs who feel defensive about a dog running at them while they are restrained - so don't feel bad! And you may think that dog running at you looks friendly and whatnot, but if Max isn't really well-socialized, all he sees is a possible threat running at him full-tilt with nowhere to go.

When you walk Max and another dog is nearby (on leash and under control), does he lunge? Bark aggressively?

Short answer, no. The only dogs he's ever done this with have been off leash, male, large, and unneutered. He's never even barked or lunged at any other dogs. Off leash or not. Running at him or not.

Long answer: He didn't bark or anything when he first met the first dog. They stood looking at/sniffing each other for a few seconds then Max starting acting aggressive.

With the second dog, they did the same thing except the sniffing went on for a longer time.

The third incident, he was barking and lunging while the dog was running toward us.


And I found out what happened with his fight while he was at his foster. Her neighbor was watching her dogs along with his own at her place. He said that he was correcting Max for something and while he was pointing his finger at Max, Max bit him. And he said that his dog reacted and protected him by attacking Max. [:-] I don't believe that for a second. Unless he was REALLY correcting Max extremely harshly, Max would NEVER try to bite a person. He adores people. I saw this guys dog. It actually lunged at me as I was walking into the fosters home.

ORIGINAL: JM

I do not put my dog in any situation where he has to deal with idiot dog owners.  Be them leashed dogs or unleashed.

ETA: I hit the post button too soon. Sorry about that.

That is impossible for me to do where I live. Unless I train Max to use a litter box and never let him see the light of day again. I live in an apartment complex in an area where there are many more inconsiderate dog owners then considerate ones. Add that to the fact that this is a college town, and there is absolutely no way that I can go even one day without encountering an idiot dog owner.

Same with mine.

I'll tell you true...I have followed Max's story since day one when you all fell out of the cosmos into this place (lol).  The problem is not with Max...not at this point anyway. And I go back to the socialization aspect...I don't believe this to be a problem either.  Evidently he knows dog law and I think that he expects others to follow it.

It kiiiiilllllssss me when others say that my dog is not socialized.  No!  He is socialized.  He knows dog manners quite well thank you!

 If one is to say that not putting up with other dogs not portraying the proper social etiqutte as 'unsocialized' ......well that is your problem, not my dogs.

Or maybe my concept of "socialization" is different.  If I am out on a walk and someone comes barrelling up to me, all chest out, staring in my face, you are dead right they are going to regret it.

I dunno...maybe I wasn't socialized enough as a child.

. The only dogs he's ever done this with have been off leash, male, large, and unneutered.

I know.  And I understand this.  I have to deal with it too.  First things first...you have to know how idiot dog owners think.

A dog, barreling at Max, with owner attached and on leash... to idiot dog owner, means "dog wants to play".  To Max it means, dog is stupid,  and has no social skills at all...maybe the dog wants to duke it out.

What freaks Max out most of all, is knowing that idiot owner is clueless, and his own human is not all that bright about such things either (sorry, lol)

So...to poor ole Max, it is 3 against one.

How do you think Max is going to act?

ETA:  sometimes you have to be the dog....lol

ORIGINAL: nGoldenm

ORIGINAL: JM

I do not put my dog in any situation where he has to deal with idiot dog owners.  Be them leashed dogs or unleashed.

ETA: I hit the post button too soon. Sorry about that.

That is impossible for me to do where I live. Unless I train Max to use a litter box and never let him see the light of day again. I live in an apartment complex in an area where there are many more inconsiderate dog owners then considerate ones. Add that to the fact that this is a college town, and there is absolutely no way that I can go even one day without encountering an idiot dog owner.

ORIGINAL: JM

I'll tell you true...I have followed Max's story since day one when you all fell out of the cosmos into this place (lol).  The problem is not with Max...not at this point anyway. And I go back to the socialization aspect...I don't believe this to be a problem either.  Evidently he knows dog law and I think that he expects others to follow it.

Ok, maybe I just don't understand "dog law". Do they discriminate who they enforce this against? Because he has had other dogs run up and be extremely rude (out of my control, it happens a lot when the majority of people walk their dog off leash) and he doesn't even bat an eye. Unless they are large unneutered males. (I feel like a broken record)

Fell out of the cosmos, huh? Haha. Why do you say that?

I dunno...maybe I wasn't socialized enough as a child.

[sm=rotfl.gif]

A dog, barreling at Max, with owner attached and on leash... to idiot dog owner, means "dog wants to play".  To Max it means, dog is stupid,  and has no social skills at all...maybe the dog wants to duke it out.

All the dogs he has had a problem with have been off leash. However, I don't think we've ever met a unneutered male on leash. Shows the kind of culture here.

What freaks Max out most of all, is knowing that idiot owner is clueless, and his own human is not all that bright about such things either (sorry, lol)

So...to poor ole Max, it is 3 against one.

How do you think Max is going to act?

No worries. I know I'm ignorant. That's why I'm here begging for help.

So what should I do when I get in a situation like this again? (it WILL happen many more times)

I am not all  hip about this dog law either.  It is a learning process.  But Zeus is the same.  I have had many dog just walk up to him...not problemo. It very well could be a stance that we have yet to comprehend.  That dogs can see and we cannot.

But...my focus is more on the owners.  If I am walking in town, and an owner sees me and Zeus, shortens up the leash and puts their dog in a heel position...then I am cool.  I have done spotted them and already have mine in the same position.  And we pass.

If I see anything other than that...I know I have an idiot dog owner on my hands and flip my dog the way.  Who is all to willing to follow.

There is a posibility that our dogs are focusing on the other dog owners as well.  Zeus seems to know which dogs are under control and which arent.  Is he picking up vibes from their owners also?

I am thinking there is a possibility of this.

So see...as Cathy (I think) said..it's not the dogs...but the owners.(paraphrasing).

Due to one owner in town allowing her dog to escape and fence fight w/mine, Zeus abhors black/brown shepards.  But we pass one on a walk quite often.  The guy has good control of his dog.  He walks him off leash but slowly reaches down and leashes him when he sees Zeus.

Zeus will give a warning bark, sees the owner and the snap on of leash,  and then goes about his buisness.  Zeus seems to trust the guy more so than the dog.  Like...hey I'm here..leash it up!  And the dude does. Zeus is cool with both the dog and guy passing.

As far as the cosmos thing...I just remember when you came in.  I have a tendency to follow some people/dogs/experiences that I am interested in. Max is one of those.

Ok, maybe I just don't understand "dog law". Do they discriminate who they enforce this against? Because he has had other dogs run up and be extremely rude (out of my control, it happens a lot when the majority of people walk their dog off leash) and he doesn't even bat an eye. Unless they are large unneutered males. (I feel like a broken record)

Fell out of the cosmos, huh? Haha. Why do you say that?

I dunno...maybe I wasn't socialized enough as a child.

[sm=rotfl.gif]

So what I'm getting from this is that I don't need to do anything about this? I mean other then avoiding encounters with these dogs.

That's gonna be really hard, now that its warm outside. There are dogs out at all hours of the day.

I really do feel for you.  I deal with the off leash dogs and because my 2 have had fights with each other over rude behavior, I worry that they'd react the same way to a strange dog, off-leash and acting hyper.  Fortunately, we've managed to avoid any serious confrontations, but I still keep it in mind every walk.  In your case, your dog is clearly telling you that he doesn't appreciate it and possibly (likely?) given the chance, he may react in a way that leads to injuries.  I'd be concerned too.  Although, I think the owners who allow their dogs to run willy nilly are thoughtless and arrogant, the dogs are the ones who ultimately pay the price, and in your case, it may be your dog.  We've had these discussions on here before about dogs running up, your dog's on a leash, but reacts and inflicts damage...who's fault is it?  Well, in my mind, it wouldn't be your dog, but the rest of the world may not see it that way.  So, sad as it may be, until you can find a way to deal with it, you may want to consider using a basket muzzle.  Not to protect other dogs, but to protect your own.  At the same time, I'd also carry something to use if the other dog becomes aggressive, such as Direct Stop or a walking stick.  If it were me, and there were no way to avoid this, I think I might be seeking the advice of a behaviorist.  It might help to have someone observe what's going on and give you some tools for dealing with it.

I would join the [linkhttp://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/]canine agression yahoo group.[/link]


It can take a LOT of patience. The first thing I learned about dogs from Chris Bach and my mother, was never ever ever ever let your dog be approached by another strange dog, and never let your dog approach a strange dog. These have been drilled in my head since I  was old enough to hold the leash on our old GSD mix. We lived in the middle of a quiet part of chicago, and Hannah was a GSD/wolf hybrid. Normally we wouldn't get a dog like this, but the conditions were appaling so we took her in.She was an itty bitty little thing, and she loved people but loathed other dogs. Just despised them. Mom would let me walk her up and down the ally during the day, provided someone was watching me. This particular day my aunt was watching me. She decided to go fetch a pop from the hosue, so here I am, a little 7 year old, alone in an alley way with my  50 pound bitch. She would never let anything hurt me, but she was so fragile, and so small. I hear growling, and hannah fixed her gaze on something behind me. I slowly turned around and there was a humungous (well, at the time...it looked about 80-90 pounds) pitbull (it's true, unfortunately stereotypical) standing squared with his hackles raised. He was really mangey, and looked like a stray dog. I was petrified. I couldn't move, and I couldn't call for help. I protected my face and dropped Hannah's leash. The pit tried attacking me, aiming for my legs and arms. Hannah backed up, lunged,  and that was the beginning of a bloody war. I still haven't seen so much blood. Hannah ripped a huge gash in the dogs side, and the pit punctured her ear in a few fews, along with crushing her paw. In a lot of pain, she still kept going. Here am I, bleeding, and leaning against somebodies garage. You'd think someone would here this ruckus! My face seriously must have looked like this[sm=blush.gif] minus the blushing, and chalk white. My aunt came running outside screaming, threw a chair at the dogs to break up the fight, and took soem pictures. Hannah never accepted other dogs after that. I had to get 10 stiches, she got about 30. She died in her sleep 6 months after the attack from an infection.

Had I been older, I would've been able to protect both dogs better, and Hannah would've been around still.

This just shows that ONE incident can ruin a dog. If I had been able to block the dogs, turn around and slowly try to walk Hannah back to the yard, the whole situation could have been avoided. We tried socializing her moire after that, but she just cowered.


If a dog or owner WITH a dog approached you, body block Max and yell the dog to go home in snarly voice or tell the owner he'd better back off you're dogs a vicious beast. I  did that with Joy when someone with and overly rambunctious Irish wolfhound approached Joy...this dog was over 100 pounds, and Joy was a little less than 20...the owner didn't believe me, but she chuckled and turned away. I will even pull out my cell phone, flip it open, and threaten to call the cops if they keep pushing the issue. It makes me soooo angry when not so dog-saavy people do this! What nerve do the have, just approaching me, and not respecting my wishes even when I ask them kindly? Do they really have to keep escalating the issue to the point I'm ready to jab them in the eye and run away?

In the case of stray or unleashed dogs, I would always bring direct stop or something like a rock, except slightly softer to spray and throw at dogs to back them away.

For training MAX, I would arm yourself with tons of extra special treats. This could be anything he goes insane for. Also bring your clicker (or your voice, using the bridge word "yes"). Start off  in the morning when their isn't a lot of dogs around, maybe a few, but no more then 5. Have Max sit, lie down, or stand nicely on your side. Don't talk or do anything.When he averts his attention to you, praise well! Tons of treats, pets, hugs and kisses. If he breaks his sit or whatever he's doing, and goes for the dogs, sea sick him. Take his leash in both hands, brace you legs, and pull him side to side about 5 times. Make him walk left and right about 5 steps before you turn him around. This is effective "punishment", but I only use this for agression, kids, or really high predatory drives, like in the cases of cats and livestock. Put him back in a sit. When he averts his attention to you, praise again with tons of treats and some hugs and kisses. don't forget "yes" or the click.this is his marker, telling him he's being a good boy for being calm. Keep doing this until you can get up to 5 feet away from other dogs without a problem.

I hope this helps!

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

[linkhttp://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm]http://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm[/link]

go to this site and read the articles about aggression. Especially "he just wants to say hi".

DAMN good article.

I wish EVERY SINGLE DOG OWNER IN THE WORLD would read this article.