Dog Community

I need help with this... (Aggression)

Posted : 3/28/2007 11:04:09 PM

Ok, so for the last couple of weeks, Max has started showing aggression toward some dogs. I honestly have no idea where to start trying to fix it or if it can even be fixed. I admit defeat and I'm coming to all of you.

First I'm going to describe the scenarios that this has happened in.

1) I was walking Max out behind our apartment buildings. Another tenant walked out of his apartment, about 50 yards away, with his dog. He never walks his dog on leash. I'm not trying to portray him as a bad guy, because he is not. One of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Anyway, his dog came running over to us. Max had never met this dog. Honestly I don't think he has ever met a dog like him while he has been living with me. This was about a month and a half after I got him. Well the other dog comes running up to us. As he gets close, he starts trotting with his head stuck out, ears forward, hackles raised, and tail straight in the air. I know these are danger signs if your dog is not the really submissive type. Well, I thought that Max was pretty submissive. Wrong. Max immediately raised his head and ears, and then he changed into a beast that I had never seen in him before. I mean he was being downright viscous. Now once Max freaked out, the other dogs owner called him and he came and sat right beside him while Max was carrying on. I then drug Max off and that was that.

2) Next time, I was walking Max out toward our normal area, and I saw a different black lab out there with his owner playing fetch off leash. Right about that time, the dog saw us. This dog wasn't as well trained. He was about 8-9 months old. He ran up very innocently. I couldn't make out any signs of aggression. He seemed to be a little afraid, but nothing that several other dogs haven't already done around Max. By the time he got close to us, Max had his head up, ears forward, and tail sticking a little in the air. They sniffed each other for a few seconds, then Max flipped out again. By this time the other dogs owner had gotten to us and had his dogs collar. I apologized, turned around, and we went to another area to go for our walk.

3) Just tonight, I was praticing off leash recalls with Max behind the apartment buildings. We were doing GREAT. He was coming to me with enthusiasm and gusto each and every time. I even recalled him from about a football field away. (Sorry had to brag in that regard). Then a couple of Max's friends came out and they were walking around with each other and playing a little and being really good. Well then, I saw the guy's door from incident #1 open about the same distance away as before. I grabbed Max's collar really quickly. When the other dog within about 5 yards of us, Max flipped out again. And this time I almost couldn't hold onto his collar good enough. But the other dog was running in our general direction, and his owner yelled leave it. The dog then just ran right on by without so much as a thought about Max going crazy and barking. [ETA: I don't think the dog was even running toward us, he was running toward the open field behind and to the side of us. He wasn't even really paying attention to us.] I finally wrestled his Easy Walk onto him by this time. Then he was fine while the other dog was a long ways away.

The first two times Max was on a leash. He doesn't show any aggression whatsoever towards dogs smaller then him. Male or not. Unneutered or not. He ignores them to the best of his ability. From what I have seen, females do not bother him in the least, no matter the size. So far it has just so happened to be large, male black labs that unneutered. But I'm not sure if its just large male dogs in particular. I also want to get across that he shows the signs of aggression at the same time or before the other dogs do. I do not believe that it is fear based, but I very well could be wrong.

Sorry about this being so long, but I wanted to thoroughly describe each situation in hopes that it would help you help me. Please help me. Any techniques or advice will be considered. I need to figure out how to get a handle on this before it gets worse. Thanks.

spiritdogs

Posted : 3/29/2007 7:16:17 AM

Read "Feisty Fido" and "Scaredy Dog" Lots of good info in those books about managing on lead aggression or reactivity.

Katy Harvey

Posted : 3/29/2007 7:37:33 AM

Believe me, I love the off-leash thing as much as anyone. My dogs go off-leash on our property (5 acres) and I have taught them both recall very reliably. If I lived on a busy street, I would never do this and have a fenced yard.

However, in your case, I wouldn't let your dog off leash at all. You've got too many neighbors that do the same thing, and if they can't control their dogs not to come up to yours, you at least need to have yours leashed for some effect of control. Until your dog can get over his aggression issues, he's not a dog I would trust off leash. I don't think it's right for your neighbors to do doing the off-leash thing either and putting you in this situation.

I would definitely consult some professional help in regards to his aggression. Maybe the other dogs are just being too rude for his comfort level, but if this isn't nipped in the bud it could easily escalate.

mudpuppy

Posted : 3/29/2007 9:07:25 AM

[linkhttp://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm]http://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm[/link]

go to this site and read the articles about aggression. Especially "he just wants to say hi".

espencer

Posted : 3/29/2007 10:39:16 AM

I think your dog was only reacting to other dogs rude behavior, of course you can still train him to ignore that rude behavior but i dont think your dog's situation is as bad as you think, if i come and start yelling at you then you would react bad also, the signals of other dogs were rude in the dog's world and your dog didnt appreciate that behavior, your dog might not be dog aggressive at all, he is just not going to put up with rudeness, i bet if the same dogs were polite then nothing would be happening

J M

Posted : 3/29/2007 11:39:59 AM

Well here goes a rant....people who walk their dogs off leash and allow them to approach dogs who are on leash, are totally clueless.

They run up to the leashed dog, get in their face, the leashed dog reacts in order to defend itself, and the owner who had his dog leashed, has the problem dog.

This.
Is.
Just.
SOOOOOOOOOOO.
Wrong.

This is so lacking in logic it's scary.

The problem is the idiot owner of the loose dog. They do nothing but create reactive and "aggressive" dogs.

Another point that escapes them... One of these days their loose dog will come up on the wrong dog and get mauled. Which in turn will cause another reactive and "aggressive" dog....this time it will be their own.

cakana

Posted : 3/29/2007 11:49:31 AM

Well here goes a rant....people who walk their dogs off leash and allow them to approach dogs who are on leash, are totally clueless.

[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] - I couldn't agree more and unfortunately, I have 2 neighbors who think that leaving their dogs our front to run and play as they please, is their right. [:@][:@][:@]...

tzumommy

Posted : 3/29/2007 11:52:16 AM

ORIGINAL: cakana
[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] - I couldn't agree more and unfortunately, I have 2 neighbors who think that leaving their dogs our front to run and play as they please, is their right. [:@][:@][:@]...

I have a neighbor like that too...[:@]
I asked my parents if they would consider making him an offer even though the house isn't for sale so that they could be our neighbors! It would be great since they are also my dog-sitters[

]

J M

Posted : 3/29/2007 12:03:47 PM

What destroys me is we label the leashed dog aggressive, and spend a gazillion hours worrying (reading/working/training) about our dog not being "balanced" .

When in truth, a balanced dog does not enter other people/dogs space.

My dog will not enter another dogs space, nor a person, yet because he will react if another dog does not employ the same curtesy and respect....... he is the one with the problem????

Oh my god...the craziness of it all kills me.

ETA: this is probably the first and the last time I will ever say this....but I agree with Espence ;-)

ORIGINAL: cakana

Well here goes a rant....people who walk their dogs off leash and allow them to approach dogs who are on leash, are totally clueless.

[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif] - I couldn't agree more and unfortunately, I have 2 neighbors who think that leaving their dogs our front to run and play as they please, is their right. [:@][:@][:@]...

houndlove

Posted : 3/29/2007 12:56:27 PM

Auuuuuggghhhh!!! Yes!!! I don't have as much of a problem with unleashed dogs as you suburban/rural dwellers UNLESS I go to one of our public parks (which legally still require leashes on all dogs). It makes me INSANE! Last night we were taking a short cut through a park on our way home and all of a sudden this dog came running FULL-TILT towards us with not a single word from his owner. Not a peep! Not a "Come, Rover!" Not even a "He's friendly!" Not a word! I had to stop walking, shorten my dogs' leashes and just wait it out. The dog was non-aggressive in his body language as he came toward us so I wasn't scared, just incredibly pissed off. And then of course we have sniff-a-palooza, and then come the play-bows, and then comes the part where Conrad and Marlowe both hang themselves as they momentarily forget that they are on leash and try to play chase with this dog.

Interestingly, Conrad is actually only reactive when he can't get at the other dog, if the other dog is on leash and across the street or down the block. If the other dog rudely just tears up to him and gets in his face, he's fine. But it still pisses me off, especially because Marlowe was aggressed towards by an off leash dog in this same park a couple months ago and a few more incidents like that and I might have two reactive dogs instead of one.

Anyway, like JM this may in fact be the first and only time I will totally agree with espencer!

J M

Posted : 3/29/2007 1:32:37 PM

"He's friendly" is the worst.

This tells me right straight off that the owner knows nothing about dogs and cannot control the dog...the dog will invade my dogs space and most likely jump straight onto my old dog's arthritic back.

A dog running straight toward another dog is rude in dog world.
A dog invading another dogs space is rude in dog world.
A dog jumping on another dogs back is rude in dog world. Even more so if these dogs have never met.

Some dogs know (and adhere)to dog law, and acts/reacts accordingly. Ending up with labels such as reactive, aggressive, unsocialized, problem dogs.

When in truth, it could very well be socialization and knowing dog law that brings about the correction/reaction from the leashed dog.

How else does a dog know dog law if not taught by other dogs?

And idiot clueless loose dog owner is staring at the leashed dog like he is an aggressive deranged freak when his dog gets puts in his place.

Never again will I use any of these words in reference to my dog. He is not reactive, aggressive, and definitely NOT a problem. They only problem he has is idiot dog owners.

nGoldenm

Posted : 3/29/2007 1:41:42 PM

ORIGINAL: 2CrazyAussies

However, in your case, I wouldn't let your dog off leash at all.

I by no means let him off leash in this area when there are other dogs around. I don't even let him off leash here during the day. There are just too many people and too many distractions. I'm trying to get him accustomed to being off leash and listening to me in case he ever gets out of my apartment, or if I have him out there off leash and something like this happens. I'm just trying to ensure that I can have control over him in most any situation if the need may arise.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

go to this site and read the articles about aggression. Especially "he just wants to say hi".

I've read that article before. I'll be sure to check out the link for other articles though.

ORIGINAL: espencer

I think your dog was only reacting to other dogs rude behavior, of course you can still train him to ignore that rude behavior but i dont think your dog's situation is as bad as you think, if i come and start yelling at you then you would react bad also, the signals of other dogs were rude in the dog's world and your dog didnt appreciate that behavior, your dog might not be dog aggressive at all, he is just not going to put up with rudeness, i bet if the same dogs were polite then nothing would be happening

I thought that too at first with the first two incidents. That's why I haven't come here asking for help before. But with the incident last night, the other dog wasn't even really running toward us. He was running toward the open field behind and to the side of us. I'm going to edit my post above because I don't think I got that across clearly. Max went into his whole barking and snarling campaign before he was near us. And believe me, if I didn't have a hold on him, he would've ran after that dog to fight. And he doesn't even acknowledge female dogs that are his size doing the exact same thing. He had a VERY dog aggressive female Rottweiler (at least 100 pounds or so) ran straight up and try to stand over him, teeth bared and everything. Max stood as still as stone just looking at her. I'm sure if she had attacked Max would've retaliated, but he didn't even so much as flinch a muscle.

ORIGINAL: JM

What destroys me is we label the leashed dog aggressive, and spend a gazillion hours worrying (reading/working/training) about our dog not being "balanced" .

When in truth, a balanced dog does not enter other people/dogs space.

My dog will not enter another dogs space, nor a person, yet because he will react if another dog does not employ the same curtesy and respect....... he is the one with the problem????

Oh my god...the craziness of it all kills me.

I admit, Max doesn't have the best manners. He was hardly socialized at all as a puppy. I'm trying to the best of my ability to remedy this. The root of all this might very well lay with me. I have no idea. That's why I came to all of you so you could set me straight. [

]

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Auuuuuggghhhh!!! Yes!!! I don't have as much of a problem with unleashed dogs as you suburban/rural dwellers UNLESS I go to one of our public parks (which legally still require leashes on all dogs). It makes me INSANE! Last night we were taking a short cut through a park on our way home and all of a sudden this dog came running FULL-TILT towards us with not a single word from his owner. Not a peep! Not a "Come, Rover!" Not even a "He's friendly!" Not a word! I had to stop walking, shorten my dogs' leashes and just wait it out. The dog was non-aggressive in his body language as he came toward us so I wasn't scared, just incredibly pissed off. And then of course we have sniff-a-palooza, and then come the play-bows, and then comes the part where Conrad and Marlowe both hang themselves as they momentarily forget that they are on leash and try to play chase with this dog.

Interestingly, Conrad is actually only reactive when he can't get at the other dog, if the other dog is on leash and across the street or down the block. If the other dog rudely just tears up to him and gets in his face, he's fine. But it still pisses me off, especially because Marlowe was aggressed towards by an off leash dog in this same park a couple months ago and a few more incidents like that and I might have two reactive dogs instead of one.

Anyway, like JM this may in fact be the first and only time I will totally agree with espencer!

Good to see you back!

And I just found out something from Max's foster. I knew that he had been bitten by another dog while he was in foster care. I didn't know how. Well, I found out that Max and another dog (a large mixed breed, unneutered male weighing about 100 pounds) got into a fight. They were both injured, but Max had the worst injury. He had to be taken to the vet because his leg was punctured rather badly. I'm still waiting to hear about how this fight initiated. I'll let you know something as soon as I know.

the_gopher

Posted : 3/29/2007 4:19:13 PM

This reminds me of a childhood incident we had with Rocky (first dog we ever had). Rocky was a mutt and friendly BUT DID NOT like rude in your face dogs who showed no courtesy.

An owner of another dog, unleashed, yelled out as his big mutt came full tilt towards us (while Rocky was leashed) that "oh don't worry he's friendly". Well the dog was rude and Rocky got defensive. Which in turn almost got my father bit becase Rocky started escalating (first was a warning growl and when the dog wouldn't listen and my Dad couldn't get him away...mind you the other owner was not near us yet...Rocky started getting even more aggravated). Then the owner has the audacity to tell us he's going to get our dog euthanized! Mind you Rocky never bit the other dog, my Dad was successful in somehow contorting his body to sheild Rocky from the obnoxious dog who had no clue as to doggy etiquette! Thankfully the threat was idle and my Dad chewed his you-know-what out.

Angelique

Posted : 3/29/2007 5:18:30 PM

It's so hard when you are trying to work with your dog on good social behavior either via a leadership type walk, a distraction or counter conditioning exercise, or even something as simple as being out in public and wanting to just go about your business in peace. Not everyone is "into it" like we dog nerds. [

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I see many dogs who live with folks who don't even do some basics like a bit of training, some NILIF, or teaching their dogs some social manners. The dog is treated a certain way at home, and it spills out onto the streets when they leave it.

In the end we can't control the retarded social skills of the dogs who either view our dog as a plaything, a danger, a rival, or even prey. I guess we just have deal with the fact all we can control is ourselves and hopefully our own dog once we walk out of the front door.

cakana

Posted : 3/29/2007 5:30:40 PM

In the end we can't control the retarded social skills of the dogs who either view our dog as a plaything, a danger, a rival, or even prey.

I have no problems with accepting the dogs and their behavior. Sure I'd like that they just sit patiently in their own yard all day, but I don't blame them when they see me and my dog and want to run over and say "hi". It's the owners that make me want to scream. We all have backyards, and most of them are quite nice, so why aren't the dogs back there? Well, because the owners are arrogant enough to think that there dogs don't need to be, and no one will mind. I hate to go out my door to walk my dog (on a leash, of course) and have to worry about a confrontation, and I shouldn't have to. Sorry for the rant [

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