I HAVE A SERIUOS PROBLEM WITH MY 2 MONTH OLD PUPS!

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: miranadobe

    I repeat: when you have your own results from applying this technique THEN come back to this thread and debate that my technique does not work


    Perhaps you missed my post on the page before this (page 4).  I lived the results in the form of Sage on a daily basis, working in the shelter where she was relinquished.  I have no need to debate it, but it's there for the example you requested.


    No i didnt, in fact you missed mine

    I just read that you were having a problem with your dog, not to be rude but a problem that is not doberman exclusive

    My question is: have you applied my technique with food agression?
    • Gold Top Dog

    ORIGINAL: espencer


    No i didnt, in fact you missed mine

    I just read that you were having a problem with your dog, not to be rude but a problem that is not doberman exclusive

    My question is: have you applied my technique with food agression?



    If you read that it was Paige having a problem with HER dog, then you didn't read her post properly....until you DO read it properly, you shouldn't comment on it.
    • Gold Top Dog
    This "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" attitude needs to stop appearing in this thread.  Poster, you know who you are and I expect you to behave like an adult and knock it off.
    • Gold Top Dog
    It's pretty easy to intimidate a little pup by mere physical presence.  What I've been trying to make clear is that there comes a day when they are no longer tiny little pups and its not so easy to intimidate them into compliance.
     
    I do not claim to be an expert on dobbies.  Heck, I'm a self proclaimed expert on nothing. [:D]In my experience however, with large breed, independent thinking dogs (german shepherds) there comes a time very early in their lives when you can no longer easily feed them together.
     
    As the OP learned with one plate, someone is going to get pushy.  I've watched litters I've fostered and they always ALWAYS get enough to eat, there is never a concern about where the next meal is coming from or when because I'm very consistent about feeding times.  When they are first weened, it's pretty much ok for them to share a pan.   Although with multiple pups its pretty typically multiple pans, but still not one for each pup.  In my experience, around 6 weeks, some dominance is going to start peeking through.  Not necessarily agression, but one pup might claim the entire pan by getting IN said pan and inhaling the food like a vacume cleaner.  And quite often pups will eat themselves silly.....not actually needing that much food but wanting to insure that no one else gets it.  Seems to be hardwired into them.  But, I don't recall any growling at all between the pups....just pushiness.  My last litter we had a little guy who was pretty passive about being shoved out of the way and very early on I started giving Mr. Ears HIS food in his own bowl in a crate.  This allowed him to eat in his own time (he was a pokey eater and liked to savor his food) without any competition and without being shoved out of the way.
     
    By the time the pups were placed however, I could line up six bowls side by side by side and each would eat from his or her OWN bowl without attempting to steal his/her neighbors and then go to the door to be let out.  This was accomplished by my presence in the room, but also by gentle redirections to their own bowls.
     
    But, the OP has the further complication of the terrier.  Now terriers tend to be rather pushy by nature and want what they want when they want it.  My advice on this one would simply to be not to allow the terrier in the room when the pups are being fed, UNLESS you have the time and energy to train her to respect their food.  She might be tenanious, but, pretty soon those pups are going to be a whole lot bigger than she is and won't put up with her interference, and as you've already seen, they can be pretty darned rude about that.  You don't want the terrier to be hurt down the road.
     
    In my multi dog household, everyone eats separately.  I know for a fact that Tyler and Sheba can eat side by side without issue, but if I were to introduce Theo to the mix, there might be problems.  Theo has "little mans syndrome" and likes to prove that he's bigger and tougher than anyone else, despite being a little spit, in gsd terms.  Yet Theo is not a huge eater and can typically take or leave food.  But the competition angle turns him into a pushy little jerk.
     
    Each and every one of my dogs will jump through hoops to please me, but, when it comes to food, it's not so easy for them to remember that.  I could enforce the rules and feed side by side with all six, but that creates a less than peaceful situation at meal time for them and for me.  It is not essential for them to stand next to one another to eat...there is plenty of room in the house, and there are plenty of quiet and peaceful crates for them to enjoy a meal without even having to think about "defending" their food.
     
    I have a boy from the last litter.  Tyler was placed in a home that I really screwed up on. I'm not often fooled, but when he came back two months later, he was in terrible shape, physically and mentally.  Because of that situation and my own guilt, we worked doubly hard with Tyler to help him develop his self confidence, to help him to feel special.  It worked and Tyler can go anywhere and do anything, including the annual MS Walk where this year a volunteer remembered him from last year, right down to his NAME and the color bandana he wore, to working with the elderly in a nursing home/assisted living setting.  Tyler is no more special than my other dogs, but he got a good deal more one on one because of my guilt and has become an absolutely stellar animal.  The one on one time is crucial, even when you have a pack as large as mine.
     
    OP, please remember that as your pups grow.  Find time to work with each individually and help both of them shine.  It's really hard at the end of a work day, on the too short weekends, to find that time for each dog, but we've found that it's essential to them being all that they can be.  Tyler gets no less one on one, but we've found that we really MUST increase the time for the others as well. And not just group romps in the woods, but the ride into town, the trip into the hardware store, etc, so that all of them have the chance to shine.  There are days when it feels like my life has completely gone to the "dogs" but what wonderful rewards when you have six german shepherds who can go anywhere and do anything.  Individually at this point still...because more than one leads to a bit of competition.....but, we're getting there.  The work and the training never stops no matter how old the dogs are....there is always something new for them to learn or to experience.  Just like with people....we can never stop learning or we stagnate.
     
    You've got your work cut out for you, but much of it is a time thing.....be sure that you make time to work with or play with each pup one on one and to develop an individual relationship with each and the rest will fall into place. Yes, you need training classes, and yes you need professional "help" to get your two to excell, but the biggie is time.  Find it and everything will be much easier, despite having two from the same litter.  You wouldn't be here if you didn't want to learn and grow along with your pups, and despite the crankiness you've seen here, we are all willing to do whatever we can to help you on your path.
    • Gold Top Dog
    So espencer - say I do want to follow your suggestion.
     
    I am supposed to stand here for 45 minutes while my dogs finish a raw meal? Listening to my one male grumble, and my other male be so completely intimidated he cowers on the floor and cannot eat? That is the answer, just to prove that I can?

    And this is a better option than letting one male eat in one room, the other male in his own room. Where my elderly male can eat a meal and relax, and my young male doesn't have to think he needs to guard food from any other animal?

    Or god forbid, if one of my male dobermans was actually willing to commit to a bite over this? Maybe you don't have the experience that some others have, but I see truly aggressive dogs daily, and I see dogs that are committed to biting, and believe me - standing in between them isn't going to stop a truly aggressive dog. It will almost ensure that you yourself get a bite, but it won't stop a FA dog from being FA, and it won't make any dog feel more comfortable.

    I'm sorry, but to anyone with any real dog knowledge here, the problems with your theory are many and clearly apparent. Just because a newbie who doesn't understand anything about dog behavior and ended up in a pretty sticky situation (that has NOT been resolved and will almost DEFINITELY continue to escalate in a variety of manners), doesn't mean your theory works. Or more importantly, it worked on a pair of 8 week old puppies. Me? I'm going to let my dogs eat in peace and not sit here and try to show them I can "lift my leg higher than they can", and we can all relax at meal times because I know everyone is safe and calm and has their own private space.
    • Gold Top Dog
    There is more to be considered than food aggression folks.  Basic temperment of the dogs should be considered even if this an unknown at the moment.  Dobermans can be sharp, been there done that with one who lived a long life and was a competition obedience dog.  Her tendency to be sharp was managed but never disappeared.  I got lucky, I had excellant mentors, I was in an obedience class as soon as she was age eligible and stayed in the club. 

    There are multiple problems with discussion boards as a method to deal with aggression based behaviors.  The skill of the posters is an unknown.  The description of the behaviors leaves out information of the setting, timing, behaviors that lead up to the situation.

    Some realities:  the original poster took litter mates that were too young.  The litter mates have not had adequate exposure to an adult for education and discipline.  The puppies could likely be spending considerable time together.  There is another dog in the house with a "game" temperment.  There is not temperment evaluation of the puppies.

    Issues for consideration.  Litter mate aggression can be expensive and deadly.  Litter mates often bond more strongly with each other than with people.  Dobermans are reinforced by the reaction to intimidation behaviors. 

    If  a poster was impacted by the puppies behaviors to the extent an all caps header is used, chances are, they will need serious, long term, local help.

    If a strategy has been reported effective by one poster, there is no evidence or reason to suggest it will generalize to the situation described by the OP.  Therefore, suggestions are best when the environmental controls prevent the practice of aggression related behaviors.  First do no harm.

    Dealing with a puppy squabble over kibble is just the tip of this ice burg.

    And for those considering littermates.... I have acquaintance with (over ten years in a dog training club) with an individual who had two male littermates.  The aggression escalated to the point the dogs would work to get out of their areas to fight.  This was a relatively skilled person who had owned dobermans before and had been a long time multiple dog owner.  This person had good support in the form of skills mentors, it still turned out to be a nightmare.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I really can't image a dog eating out of a cubby hole for the rest of its life just so the dog eats in peace.  I can't image my dogs not being around the dining room table during Thanksgiving or any other celebrations.  I can't image having a barbecue and in that time of enjoyment and relaxation being concerned about food and the dog.  If that situation was in my house, I surely would be trying different things to change the situation and not give up. Food is such a big part of every day life.
    • Gold Top Dog
    DPU, how many experiences have you had where the keeping of littermates ended up in total shambles with one or both being shipped off to the shelter?  You have limited experience, too, IMO, and shouldn't be poking a finger at Glenda in that respect.  The reason that we advise caution in this situation is because the number of times when it works is outnumbered by the number of times it does not. 
    mrv has given reasoned and sound advice.  I suggest we limit our bickering and let the OP take that advice.  Some of us have outlined how the OP should proceed if the pups are to stay in the home, and, to be honest, my guess is that's where they will stay.  Despite the error of taking them, and the breeder's irresponsibility, it is very difficult for anyone who has bonded with a dog to let go that bond.  Our focus should now be on proper socialization and training, which doesn't involve having to stand guard between two food bowls, or make dogs uncomfortably wary as they eat. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    My way of approaching dog training whether it be housetraing, feeding, leash waling etc. is to first set your desired goal and work towards that goal. If you want your dog to potty outside, don't start with paper training. If you want your dogs to eat together, don't start by separating them. If you have a plan, are consistent and willing to put in the time and effort then chances are you will be sucessful in reaching your desired goal. However, sometimes despite our best efforts to train we are forced to re-evaluate our goals in the best interest of our dogs, their saftey and our own sanity. So if after doing the 'work', FA is still a problem, separation may be needed as a form of management. I do believe it is better to try and train/solve the problem first before simply managing it though. JMHO.
    • Gold Top Dog
    This will be the last warning on this thread. Play nice or get suspended. No exceptions.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: DPU

    I really can't image a dog eating out of a cubby hole for the rest of its life just so the dog eats in peace.  I can't image my dogs not being around the dining room table during Thanksgiving or any other celebrations.  I can't image having a barbecue and in that time of enjoyment and relaxation being concerned about food and the dog.  If that situation was in my house, I surely would be trying different things to change the situation and not give up. Food is such a big part of every day life.

     
    You can#%92t?  I am surprised by this statement DPU – after being a member of this forum and a dog rescuer - you wouldn#%92t realize how often and how real these circumstances are?  How lucky you haven#%92t had to deal with this to an extreme yet?
     
    I have hired two behaviorists and over the course of 2 years made some major changes in my dogs food guarding.  The key questions from both my behaviorist was the same "will you ever trust your dog 100% around food?"  If the answer is no you must always supervise and minimize any set backs.  He is 85% after 2 years, from 2% mind you so there have been major strides in his progress but I can#%92t ever trust him 100% around food with anyone but me or my DH.  When my company or my 6 year old is present, River is not.  That goes for dinner, parties, barbeques, snacking around the TV or as he eats his own dinner.  I would never take the chance or put my dog and 6 year old (or innocent company) in a position where the outcome could be dangerous.  It would be a stupid thing for me to do.
     
    Consider yourself lucky DPU and don#%92t think you haven#%92t had this issue because of your training skills, it is pot shot.  One day you may find yourself in this situation since you do take in rescues - then you will sure be asking for advice and praying you can fix it 100% but may only find the best you can do is manage and minimize and to err on the side of safety.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    With respect to all, I have experience with one set of littermates that worked out where the two have given me much pleasure.  They are tame, well behaved, and fit very well in my home.  They were gotten from what most would called a BYB because the breeder gave me littermates and the breeder knew one of the dogs was deaf.  The breeder also told me the noses which were black and pink, would turn all black when they got older.  I knew better and accepted these two little ones and the responsibility that came with them.  By there names, Blizzard (a storm) and Drizzle (mild rain), I expected the deaf dog Blizzard to be problematic and Drizzle to be a saint.  The opposite happened where I had to do more training and behavior modification with Drizzle than with Blizzard.
     
    Prior to Blizzard and Drizzle, I had Pepperdine, a Great Dane and Nessie, an Old English Bulldog.  Obviously, these two were not littermates but they are the same age and I did get them from a pet shop.  No bad experience in raising these two.  NOTE!  I am not advocating buying a dog from a pet shop.  It was my knowledge of it being ok to buy from a pet shop at the time.
     
    I have more real life experiences but I don#%92t know how many more are needed to break out of the “limited experience” characterization.  3, 4, 5, 6, or more?  The OP is at the beginning of raising littermates.  I am at the end of raising littermates.  My experience is relevant to the OP because we both share the same situation. 
     
    Mrv#%92s contribution to this thread is very valuable.  But frankly, if I received that advice when I was raising my littermate pups, I would be a nervous wreck from worry.  I would think why in the world did I get myself in this situation and how do I get out of it.  Luckily, it turned out positive.
     
    I don#%92t see where my 3 post are all that different from others in this thread, including Espencer.  By my story, I said separate initially, get the dogs where they can eat together peacefully, train separately, build a unique relationship with each, seek advice from a professional trainer.  IMO, my advice was more comforting that Mrv#%92s.   
     
    And lastly, the taboo or myth of raising littermates.  Glenmar is the only one that stated she raised littermates and I think kind of implied she had negative experiences and that is why she would not approve most adoptions of littermates in one home.  Please detail that experience, unless I missed it.  There were three posters in this thread that stated they had friends who attempted to raise littermates and the results were a shamble, one resulting in the two being PTS.  Although these tales are second hand, I can recognize that I raised my two girls right while others did it wrong.  Going forward, I will qualify the myth of littermates describing the outcome as dependent on the approach to raising the two.
    • Gold Top Dog
    It's not impossible DPU and you probably did a good job of making them individuals.  Here is a clip from the Canine Learning Center.
     
    Twenty-five  years ago, I saw only one home per year that had acquired littermates.  Now, I see 2 or 3 per month.  “Littermate Syndrome” can be mild or severe.  Mild cases are barely noticeable, while severe cases can lead to constant fighting, separation anxiety from each other, and even in some cases, aggression towards humans.  Many of the cases I see involve dogs that cannot be separated even for the time it takes to take one for a walk.  If one dog is sick and must stay overnight at the veterinarian#%92s, the stay-at-home dog will become destructive and vocal.  
    Dogs MUST be allowed to develop as individuals.  At seven weeks of age, they are ready to look to the outside world for bonding and individuality.  They are ready to leave the pack and move on.  Pups at seven weeks bond easily to the human UNLESS they do not leave their litter.  Maintaining siblings from the same litter interferes with this transfer. 
    So what do we do?  This is ALWAYS a hard phone call for me to take.  I am always torn between my duty as a trainer and my desire not to upset my clients.  But, my trainer instinct always wills out.  I must first consider what is best for the dog.  What is the best environment for the dog#%92s mental well-being?  What will be the best way to keep him healthy mentally, to promote his ability to bond to his owner, and to try to ensure a long life in a good home? 
    There are TWO solutions.  While the first solution is the best thing for the dog, it is almost always unthinkable for the owners.  They have become attached to the pups and it is a hard solution to face.  The BEST (but not only) solution is to re-home one dog.  Find him a good home possibly with another family member or trusted neighbor.  I have seen drastic improvements in the personalities of both pups when the owners re-home one…I have seen these changes occur almost over night and even as late as 7-9 months of age.  However, the longer you wait, the harder it will be.
     The second best solution is to do everything in your power to create two individual dogs.  They must be allowed, no, REQUIRED, to have their own space, to develop their own personalities, and to look to the owner for bonding and love.  They must have lots and lots of  “only dog” time. 
    1.     Crate them separately (preferably in separate rooms or at opposite ends of a room.)
    2.     Feed them separately.
    3.     Walk them separately.
    4.     Play with them separately.
    5.     Take them to the vets separately.
    6.     Train them separately.
    7.     TRAIN them!  Take them to a good obedience class where the instructor knows how to work with littermates.  Take them on separate nights.  Do NOT take them to the same class.
     
    They can play together, but I cannot stress the importance of these separation procedures enough.  Keeping the siblings together at all times will create two parts of a whole, not two individuals.  9 out of 10 cases that I see show some signs of littermate syndrome.  Some of the more severe cases are heartbreaking.
    • Gold Top Dog
    um, DPU, it's probably easier to raise two great dane littermates than two dobes, especially without the complication of a terrier. Danes are pretty laid back and I have yet to encounter one with serious food guarding issues.
    Never had a dobe, but I suspect it's harder to raise one dobe than two great danes.
    • Gold Top Dog
    As for feeding,I wonder how natural it is for dog to feed in close proximity of eachother,if it is not neccesary.

    I only throw this out there,because in every wildlife feeding scene,whether it be wolves,or big cats,they get their big hunk of meat,and take it to eat away from any of the other animals,to eat in peace..

    It would seem to me,resouce gaurding is probably something that comes natural to all animals.I had never really thought about this way,but seems logical.