I HAVE A SERIUOS PROBLEM WITH MY 2 MONTH OLD PUPS!

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

it's just to say that there are people here with experience in exactly this situation with this breed and thensome who are seeing outcomes as horrifying as they come - because they've seen them from experience.

Well so far i have just read about "might's" and "probably's", anything about "i did it and this is what happened"

Here's a fact, my dog is a resource guarder.  If I give him a juicy bone and sit next to him while he eats it I can handle it and take it away at my leisure for hours.  If I walk away and then approach and want to sit back down, no way - its his.  What happens when this owner thinks all is clear?  After how long does he/she stop guarding and supervising their interaction while eating?  I bet after a week the OP will go back to the ways before and have an issue again maybe more later than now.  Give the OP some specifics to carring out this method and be successful.  Where's the long term advise?  Do you think maybe that would be helpful?
 
I believe that the overall senario for these pups is important and that the OP could learn a lot from this post and the replies.  There is no quick fix without management and there is no easy raising of two, pedigree dogs and the successful rearing of them.  I do wish the OP the best of luck and NO, I dont' think returning one is necessary but I do think that understanding what is needed to help these puppies to grow without problems is important for anyone wanting to venture into multiple doghood.

Well so far i have just read about "might's" and "probably's", anything about "i did it and this is what happened"

IMO, it's unrealistic to base everything we do solely on things we have experienced directly.  Reality is not objective and reality is a collective experience.

If someone were to say "I think I might be able to make a bus stop if I just stand in front of it..." and I replied that that was a bad idea, I wouldn't expect that person to tell me my opinions didn't count b/c I'd never tried it. 

If you try something and it works for you, great!  By all means keep doing it and keep posting that it's what you tried and it worked.  But we can't say that other possibilities won't work just because a different one worked for us.  In any scenario in life, there's probably infinite methods that will work.  However, the right method is not based on what other people would do or have done, it's based on which method actually fits with the person IN the situation.

It's up to the OP. She's the one with the dogs. We can all give advice until we are blue in the face, but it's the OP's responsibility to figure it out.

Frankly, I think it's pretty weak of the OP to listen to the one person who will tell her what she wants to hear instead of the ten people who are telling her what actually happens with dogs. And I certainly don't think that it's our responsibility to change our advice because it is sound and unpartisan.

*Everyone* says no to littermates, even Leerburg.
Dogs get fed separately since forever, not since Karen Pryor.
Nobody thinks it's easy or sound to raise pups from freakin' three and a half weeks old (!!!!!)

But I do think it is our responsibility not to get baited into an infight, because it raises Espencer's credibility when folks argue with him, and everyone pretty much agrees that he is giving un-credible advice.

And I think that it's our responsibility to understand that everyone can be weak, and that this does not mean that we collectively turn our backs on either the truth of the matter or the OP, who will eventually see the truth because she is living with it.

Well so far i have just read about "might's" and "probably's", anything about "i did it and this is what happened"


Meet Sage - blue Doberman in case folks don't recognize the breed from the picture.  She and her littermate brother were purchased and raised together in a manner like you describe.  After the "sibling rivalry" that the owners called it warped into full brawls with multiple punctures and sutures, Sage landed in rescue at age 2.  Notice it was the female who was booted from the family.  While in rescue, she was a horror show on many levels that evidenced her poor upbringing in the form of resource guarding, pot-shot bites, inappropriate behavior with humans, etc.  She was under evaluation for euth because of her repeated issues until the trainer got a hold of her and her history whereupon she knew what management would be needed going forward.  She implemented it, Sage was adopted to a home where management and training are maintained, and Sage is a happy girl!  One of my fav Dobes ever, in fact.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

If someone were to say "I think I might be able to make a bus stop if I just stand in front of it..." and I replied that that was a bad idea, I wouldn't expect that person to tell me my opinions didn't count b/c I'd never tried it. 

Lets try to pick another example where actually the result can be done by some people

ORIGINAL: Liesje

But we can't say that other possibilities won't work just because a different one worked for us. 

And thats exactly what everybody is saying about mine, they say it wont work because "probably", because it "might", etc

ORIGINAL: fisher6000
everyone pretty much agrees that he is giving un-credible advice.

Have you done that technique? everybody agrees that they have not

Is up to the OP to listen to speculations or listen from actual experience, experience that the OP already had (as one of the OP comments already pointed out)

People here first is like "oh no, dont do it, it wont work, do this instead", OP does it anyway and works, then people is like "oh in the future it might happen this then". So if the OP does not follow your advice then is condemn for the future and you try to prove your points with "mights" and "probablys". People, get over it, it worked for the OP, dont try to find a negative point to it

You people have speculations, me and the OP have facts

I repeat: when you have your own results from applying this technique THEN come back to this thread and debate that my technique does not work

ok, i really appreaciate your advice you guys.. 
But there is one thing that really bothers me..
today my fox terri tried to get some food from there plate and recieved a bit of snarls from both of them.. the girl mostly...
from now on my fox terri will be somewhere else when puppys are eating..
 
 
But is this forever!!!!
 
some people are saying it will take a lot of work,
im willing to do that.. i just dont no where to start...
 
 
Advice On This Anyone?

What an absolutely stunning girl.  Thank you for sharing part of Sage's story.

Well so far i have just read about "might's" and "probably's", anything about "i did it and this is what happened"

And to rehash what I already stated:

I have seen FA dogs, including one FA and Toy Aggressive Dobie bitch.  The method you suggested created more FA...because the bitch was done eating before her packmate, a 140lb Dane mix.  There were never any fights, but my friend and I found that feeding them in seperate rooms prevented all the FA. 

dobermann, where are you located? (You can PM me if you prefer not to broadcast it publicly) and I can put you in touch w/some Dobe-savvy trainers.  Mine is a godsend so I will ask her for some specifics to assist you.  I truly appreciate that you've been able to stay through all of this and are looking for some answers long term.  We will help you with the best of what can be offered online.  But a good trainer is going to be worth ten times what you pay, for the health and well-being of your pups.

ok, i really appreaciate your advice you guys..[align=left]it has helped me a lot..regarding the way the puppys are going to be fed, im going with Espencers Idea. today i used it again and the girl didnt go for the boys food as much, probably only 3 times and then no more..the second time i fed them today the girl didnt even glimpse at the boys plate and there was no problem thank god...so thank you espencer...! a few more weeks and maybe they will be allright..

[align=left] Nothing gets resolved in a few weeks becasue these are only puppies - what your doing right now is intimidating them and they are responding, the real problems and the true test will be  when they are 10-15 months old and adolesents begins.    That is when the real issues with many dogs and their need to buck for higher pack ranking really begai.s -  Amoungst themseleves and their humans.  The fact that your Terrior wasn't allowed would make me think your protocal needs to expand to all dogs and all situations.

Hopefully epencer will now chime in and give you the long..........   term protocol for his method.   You are right, this is the most important piece to the method.

Also,  if you try another method you just might find it to work too - don't limit yourself. [] 

But there is one thing that really bothers me..
today my fox terri tried to get some food from there plate and recieved a bit of snarls from both of them.. the girl mostly...  from now on my fox terri will be somewhere else when puppys are eating..

It takes time to make changes,..  To really be successful in the what your looking for "all dogs should be able to eat next to each other" you have a long road in front of you.

But is this forever!!!!

 

Dog training is a forever commitment and you will find many and I mean many new problems as they grow.  Tomorrow it will be something else and the next week something else until they are mature. 

some people are saying it will take a lot of work,
im willing to do that.. i just dont no where to start...

  I would highly suggest you start by bringing your puppies to obdience classes where you can benefit from expierenced trainers and have the support you will need.  They will also have the ability to see your pups interact with other dogs and humans.  You have biten off alot more than I think you know and if you wait until problems arise they are harder to fix than preventing them in the first place.

Advice On This Anyone?

  I think this whole thread is dedicated to the advise you are looking for.  Read it and take away from it what will work for you.

Good luck and keep us posted.

ORIGINAL: dobermann

ok, i really appreaciate your advice you guys..[align=left]it has helped me a lot..regarding the way the puppys are going to be fed, im going with Espencers Idea. today i used it again and the girl didnt go for the boys food as much, probably only 3 times and then no more..the second time i fed them today the girl didnt even glimpse at the boys plate and there was no problem thank god...so thank you espencer...! a few more weeks and maybe they will be allright..

You are very welcome [], regardless of what you read here the important thing is that you tried it and you saw that worked

ORIGINAL: dobermann
 
But there is one thing that really bothers me..
today my fox terri tried to get some food from there plate and recieved a bit of snarls from both of them.. the girl mostly...
from now on my fox terri will be somewhere else when puppys are eating..

Same problem, the dog does not need to be aggressive to have the same intention, the terrier was being "rude" and he got an expectd answer, the terrier needs to know that he can not eat from every plate that is on the floor because it might not belong to him, maybe the terrier didnt know because never had other dogs in the same house, maybe he is whilling to share and thought that plate was for everybody, basically the same advice, one plate for each of them and they are not allowed to eat from another dog's plate, since you are already with the dobermans at the feeding time you can include the terrier to show the rules to everybody, if not then the terrier might come back later in the future and do the same once you thought the dobermans were fine eating alone, the terrier needs to know the new rule also

[sm=beatdeadhorse.gif] [sm=beatdeadhorse.gif] [sm=beatdeadhorse.gif]

Sure is a whole lotta theory and arguin' goin' on for a sitchyation that was resolved by jest using one more plate []

dobermann ... good luck, and kudos to you for finding good information here that was useful to you. I hope you'll keep posting, and seeking advice from your fellow dobe owners ... as you can see we're a passionate lot! []

espencer ... [8D] now don't let all this success go to yer head! [] ... hehee.

I repeat: when you have your own results from applying this technique THEN come back to this thread and debate that my technique does not work

Perhaps you missed my post on the page before this (page 4).  I lived the results in the form of Sage on a daily basis, working in the shelter where she was relinquished.  I have no need to debate it, but it's there for the example you requested.

I didn't have littermates, or Dobes.  But I (unwisely) got two puppies, about three months apart in age. 

Now, there was a lot going on in our case because our male was from an abandoned litter, who were separated from their mother at approximately 5 weeks and their littermates at 7. 

I fed both dogs in the same room.  I taught them that you didn't mess with the other dog while it was chow time.  I was calm, consistent, and absolute about it.  My dogs were great a meal time - but I'm pretty sure things would have degraded had I not been in the room.  "Pack leader's" opinion only matters when said pack leader is around.  Dogs don't do absolutes in the same way we do, which is why a dog that would never get on the couch when people are home may sneak up for a nap when every one is gone. 

Happy meal times didn't change the fact that as my male aged, he became increasingly aggressive with my female.  Mealtimes were the least of my worries.  Crated, together - small potatoes. Who cares?  You can make either feeding arrangement work if you want to.  Their behavior when I was around?  Great.  It turns out that things were getting funky when I wasn't around, and I didn't realize it until things had gotten to a point of no return.

My point is that I agree with the pp's who are trying to point out the larger problems with the OP's situation.  How he feeds the dogs is really neither here nor there, if he can get the dogs to eat in peace.  How he handles two tough minded, bonded, and competitive  dogs *is* the point.

Sage is a very lucky girl that the time and effort were spent to bring out her potential rather than euthanizing her for her inappropriate behavior.
 
We went to class with a pair of mixed breed pups that were adopted as litter mates from the pound. The owners didn't know of their mistake until starting class and worked hard to overcome any problems. The mix of these dogs was pretty uncertain at best but they were medium sized with pretty mild temperaments. It did work out for these dogs, because they did have good owners, but they were pretty much at the bottom of their classes and neither dog developed a recall. They are either exercised on leash or in the back yard. I can certainly understand not wanting to return a mixed breed dog to the pound and the owners are reasonably happy with them but wouldn't adopt litter mates again.