I HAVE A SERIUOS PROBLEM WITH MY 2 MONTH OLD PUPS!

ORIGINAL: glenmar

David, I would never dispute that having littermates can be an absolute joy.  However, it is also a lot more work.  Perhaps to you and me, not so much, but to the AVERAGE dog owner, two pups are not twice the work of one.....but many more times. Under the right circumstances, yes, I would consider placing siblings,but the person would have to have nearly as much dog experience as I do for me to feel comfy cozy about it.

Thank you Glenmar.  It is getting very frustrating when I have to keep asking about these dog taboos and never get a competent authority answer.  I want to do the littermates again because of my experience.  I don't shut out opposing views.  I do read them and take them in and I want any of my concerns addressed.  I ask for experience or literature to support their claim.  So far I have not gotten one iota of info to contradict my experience. 

By the way, thank you also for the correct spelling of separate.  Its the only word where the mispelling bugs me.  My teacher named Mrs. Wilharm (for real) had the spelling as her pet peeve and really drove it home.  She said always think of the phrase "separate a rat" and you will always spell it right. 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

You're right, all I have is speculation.

Enough said

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

You're right, all I have is speculation.

Enough said

Funny thing is that's all you have too.

See, this is what always happens.

A bunch of people come on and give good advice that the OP does not want to hear:

*give one back
*they are really very young and will have problems
*at the very least separate them because dogs fight over food, period.

And Espencer is the only person giving the advice that the OP wants to hear. Its veracity is... well... debatable. But it is the only advice the OP wants to hear because he is basically saying that the dogs have no innate tendencies of their own that you cannot stand there and Pack Lead out of them.

And then all the other people who agree with one another (that's a whole lot of dog knowledge between all of us) keep harping on the three issues in this thread:

*two pups is too much for anyone
*they are very young
*and most people separate their dogs when they eat, at least for a training period or to suss out the situation if not forever.

And do you know what this does? This makes Espencer look picked on, which makes the OP much more likely to listen to him, and much less likely to come back when she finds out what comes of Espencer's advice.

If we were all smart, and if we all cared about what the OP did with these two absurdly young littermates, we would all put a sock in it, stop arguing with Espencer, and wait for her to come back after she's tried his way over time. Remember that Espencer's experience on this is based on dogsitting--he said so himself. My guess, given the nature of his advice, is that he has never had to live with the long-term scenarios that arise from this kind of "solution."

With that, because I do genuinely hope that the OP one day returns and asks more questions, I bow out of this thread.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes


Funny thing is that's all you have too.

Hi Fisher6000,

Thats because even though all of the posters ( save 2) were polite, they kept repeating, you made a mistake, over and over again.  They kept repeating you have to do this.  Frankly the advice to returned the pup back shocked me and most likely was a turn off to the OP.  Espencer looked at the situation and acknowledge the issues and minimized them.  He did this based on his interpretation of CM, his experience, and his high confidence. 

I saw what was happening and that is why I posted directly to Espencer to modify his advice to at least include more precautions.

Two of the posters are very close to a personal chat.  Rudeness and personal attacks are not tolerated here regardless of how the two of you boys feel about each other. To steal a phrase...put a sock in it.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

he is basically saying that the dogs have no innate tendencies of their own that you cannot stand there and Pack Lead out of them.

I would not say it like that but basically yes []

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

when she finds out what comes of Espencer's advice.

The OP already did and posted the results already

ORIGINAL: fisher6000
Remember that Espencer's experience on this is based on dogsitting--he said so himself. My guess, given the nature of his advice, is that he has never had to live with the long-term scenarios that arise from this kind of "solution."

Yeap i said it, how old do you think i am? 8? i had dogs all my life, my experience does not come from just dog sitting once, besides having different kinds of breeds thru my life i also see this couple dogs i'm talking about way too often because they are my neighbor's dogs, is not just that i saw them once and i never saw them again, sometimes i have them for weeks, i think i would know if my solution backfires or not

The funny thing is that nobody else has applied that method, i'm the only one (maybe Ed did and he already said there was no fights) so i dont know why everybody is so sure of what is going to happen if they have not done it, people, do it and when you have your own results THEN come back to this thread and debate that my technique does not work

All to often many new dog owners claim they didn#%92t realize that life in a multiple dog household requires working with individual dogs.  Or maybe they DO realize it (that the dogs must be allowed to develop as individuals) but they don#%92t realize the implications for failing to do so.
 
… Because when asked, they say they know what they#%92re doing and why:  Then when asked “Two pups?”  The reply comes quickly:  “Yes, we got two so they could keep each other company.”
 
Translation:  Pups can eat together, sleep together, play together, grow up together and we can happily and without quilt “ignore” them..  Until such time as they will no longer eat together, sleep together, play together OR be without each other on walks or in the house.  THEN they want to come and ask trainers “why” our dogs won#%92t let us into their lives.
 
It comes down to the distinction between owner and spectator and owner as participant.  All too often, the owner who gets two pups “so they can keep each other company” has just announced his/her intentions to spectate.

All to often many new dog owners claim they didn#%92t realize that life in a multiple dog household requires working with individual dogs. Or maybe they DO realize it (that the dogs must be allowed to develop as individuals) but they don#%92t realize the implications for failing to do so.

… Because when asked, they say they know what they#%92re doing and why: Then when asked “Two pups?” The reply comes quickly: “Yes, we got two so they could keep each other company.”

So true.  It's like someone saying "oh yeah DH and I are thrilled we're having twins so they can take care of each other."  Umm....no.

Wow, that was a really intersting way of putting it, and I have to say I don't think I ever thought about the issue in quite those terms. Thanks for bringing something new to this discussion.
 
Multi-dog is hard. I have often said that for us it's been 3 times as hard than one dog. There's Conrad and his issues and foibles, there's Marlowe and his issues and foibles, and then there's Conradandmarlowe which is like a seperate animal altogether and has a whole third set of issues and foibles. In fact, things started to go down hill a little when we started walking them together all the time, when previously we'd walked seperately while leash-training Marlowe. We're walking seperately at least half the time now again. It's a very subtle dynamic, having two dogs that can communicate clearly with one another but not with you.

So having 2 dogs is a bad idea?  or why do you people think the OP is not able to have 2 just like maybe 80% of the posters here?

It's not a bad idea or impossible, but it is hard. Which means it's a bad idea for someone who isn't willing to do some hard work. Not saying the OP isn't willing, just saying that IF someone weren't willing to do some work, to not get 2 dogs. Two littermates is another issue and that is generally acknoledged to pretty much always be a bad idea. I'm not that knowledgable about puppies, but littermates or not I'm not sure I'd like  ot have 2 puppies at once. That's too much hard work even for me.

Wow espencer you are so off base and on the defensive maybe you should step back and re-read.  After all that little bit I wrote came right from Cesar himself.

No one said it was a bad idea to have more than 2, 3 or 4 dogs PROVIDING you think through your reasons and your commitment to treat them as indviduals and to their training.  Its the littermte thing, its the getting two dogs to keep each other company thing, NOT you should never have more than one dog.  That's ridiculous!

i had dogs all my life

as my trainer says in response to this... "I've had teeth all my life, too - doesn't make me a dentist."
that's not personal, espencer, it's just to say that there are people here with experience in exactly this situation with this breed and thensome who are seeing outcomes as horrifying as they come - because they've seen them from experience.