I HAVE A SERIUOS PROBLEM WITH MY 2 MONTH OLD PUPS!

How I dealt with food aggression when we went from a one-dog to a multi-dog household....
 
I already knew my existing dog was a bit of a resource-gaurder with other dogs (not humans), so I wanted to proceed carefully and never let him actually get any experience with his fears being born out and this other interloping dog stealing his food. We supervised very carefully for many weeks. We began by feeding in seperate but adjacent rooms. Slowly, over several weeks, we moved their dishes closer together with each meal. If there was any sign of gaurding or them even noticing the other while eating, we backed up and moved them farther apart again. We simultaneously worked on training the new dog in the eating protocol of maintaining a down-stay while the food is dished out and set on the ground, with a release word used to give permission to eat. By the time we had them side by side, they'd been living together for a couple months and established a relationship and had the food routine down.
 
Still with higher-value items (raw bones, bully sticks) they are seperated, and since they get their breakfast Kongs in their seperate confinement areas in the morning when we leave for work, they still get one meal a day seperately. I also still supervise while they eat. It only takes them a couple minutes for them to hork down their food, so I just kind of mill about and make sure everything's cool. I've never really had to step in though because we laid a pretty good foundation at first. It works primarily becuase while Conrad is a gaurder, Marlowe does not give him reason to gaurd--he's not a stealer. He gulps down his food and then leaves the room while Conrad nibbles. When Conrad has finished eating and has a drink of water, Marlowe then comes back in and has his water too. If Marlowe was more bold about challenging Conrad, they'd be fed seperately 100% of the time. I have no problem with that.

David, I can hardly let stand the comment that the poster would do the exact same thing with ADULT dogs without questioning it. hysically putting your own body between two dogs about to go at it, is asking for a serious injury.
 
 As far as respecting the OP, I have tried to answer the questions honestly and the only judgement I have expressed was about the so called breeder.  As a breeder, and as a foster home, I have never placed siblings together.  That is my experience.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

As a breeder, and as a foster home, I have never placed siblings together.  That is my experience.

 
If that is your experience and your belief, then how do you think you can contribute to help the OP?

ORIGINAL: glenmar

David, I can hardly let stand the comment that the poster would do the exact same thing with ADULT dogs without questioning it. hysically putting your own body between two dogs about to go at it, is asking for a serious injury.

 
My 2 post addressed this and it will only take one accident for Espencer to be more cautious.  Wasn't that enough?

The current situation is a considerable challenge.  The puppies were removed from the dam far to early for good social behavior rules to be established.   The dogs are litter mates which can result in bonds that are too canine in nature.  There has been some practice of aggression but that may be able to be managed.  There is a terrier in the household and by definition the terrier is likely to be a dog that will not back down by choice. 
 
So, there are a number of needs to be addressed.  Feeding in situations that will prevent aggression.  Adequate socialization and discipline with a skilled adult dog, preferably a recent matron.  There needs to be considerable seperation and training and socialization time alone for each puppy.
 
This is not a situation that can easily be managed via a discussion board.  This is a great place to offer ideas and examine options.  However there is no substitute for local support in the form of breed savey mentors (which the breeder in question does not appear to be).   A local training program, preferably with someone who has owned dobermans or other occassionally hardheaded working dogs, may offer the best options.
 
This could turn out ok, or it could be a nightmare.  It all depends on the quality of support the OP can find locally.  The terrier could be at risk as the dobermans age, especially if they bond strongly and it becomes two against one.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Standing between two dogs and guarding one from the other is simpler than either feeding them in their crates or in seperate rooms where human doesn't have to stand guard?  Hmmmm I usually use the time when the dogs are eating to do something else-like perhaps clean up a bit.  But that's because I'm really a pack leader, I don't have to stand guard.[]

Is the same mechanic as  +R and treats, you give treats and after a while you dont ned them anymore, in this situation it works even faster, in this case you stand guard because as a good pack leader the guy is specting the OP to let the girl know what are the rules, boundries and limitation during feeding time, THATS a pack leader, a pack leader is not someone that avoids the problem, feeding them separetely solves the problem at that moment but not the cause, the girl will still be having that food aggressive problem at the moment they go back to eat together, therefore you stand guard a couple times and presto, dogs know that stealing food is not allowed, no reason to get worried about being together during feeding time

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

What you suggest may work in some cases, but it also may reinforce the idea that "human needs to protect you while you're eating my food in your bowl."

Wrong, do dogs need a treat everytime you tell them to sit because thats the way they learned? .........thank you, i didnt think so either

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
Since you don't have  food aggressive dogs in your household you can't see this.  I have seen FA dogs, including one FA and Toy Aggressive Dobie bitch.  The method you suggested created more FA...because the bitch was done eating before her packmate, a 140lb Dane mix. 

Exactly i dont have food aggressive dogs because i never let them be in first place, i highly doubt that you tried that method before, besides i dont see any problem with one dog finishing before the other

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
There were never any fights,

Thank you again for proving my point

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

You method might work, but sooner or later it will probably backfire-especially with littermates.  Feeding in seperate rooms/crates accomplishes much more than just preventing FA.

Not might, it works because i have done it when i dog sit, therefore i know if backfired or not, i'm sorry to disapoint you but it didnt, thats the difference between me and your "might", "probably", etc. those are just speculations and speculations is the only thing you have since you dont try it and when you did then you said yourself that there was any fights

I think Glenmar, Mudpuppy and others have given, good, genuinely concerned advice in that a puppy spat which was solved by using separate dishes is just the tip of the iceberg.

If it is redundant to the OP that these puppies need to be socialized, trained, and raised separately that's a whole lot better than for the OP to find themself with two large breed dogs that show no interest in listening. That scenario has the potential to make the newspapers and not in a good way.
 
Edited to correct separate. My spelling has not stood the test of time and spell check well at all.

Oh, I dunno.  Maybe because I have raised littermates myself?  Maybe because I know the incredible time commitment required?  And my comments regarding the "breeder" had little to do with the sibling placement, but dumping the pups at the age of 5 weeks.
 
Perhaps you should go back and read my earlier posts before you tell me to go away and stop bothering folks.
 
For the record, had you said to another forum member what you just said to me, you and I would be having a private chat.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

David, I can hardly let stand the comment that the poster would do the exact same thing with ADULT dogs without questioning it. hysically putting your own body between two dogs about to go at it, is asking for a serious injury.

Have you tried it? after reading your comment i dont think so = speculations

They wont "go at it" because thats the point of being in between, to avoid getting closer to eachother, now if they are face to face ready to bite eachother not even CM will put his hand in between, thats just dumb

Dont worry gelnda, we are not talking about adult dogs in this case anyway, you can relax

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Oh, I dunno.  Maybe because I have raised littermates myself?  Maybe because I know the incredible time commitment required? ...

 
Glenmar, I also raised littermates and I know my experience and I have posted in detail on many threads about my experience.  My experience was a joy.  In my first post here I stated
 
" Each time the subject of bringing littermates into the home, it is always frowned upon.  This time, the recommendation was to return one of the puppies.  I have Great Dane littermate bitches and like some others on this forum, have not encountered problems.  I would be happy to qualify my experience if someone can share their first-hand experience of having problems with littermate bitches and coped with the problems over the life of the dog.  Or suggest reading that gives a definitive answer. "
 
I will be more than happy to qualify any future statements just I do now for spay/neuter.

Actually, no, not speculation.  Please re-read my comment about being in the wrong place at the wrong time and the scars.  I happen to own large breed dogs and I happen to know from first hand experience the amount of damage a bite can do that was intended not for a human, but for another dog.  As I recall, you own one small dog, so I'm not clear how you can relate your experience with one small dog to two gonna be very large and powerful pups.  Sometimes all things are not equal.
 
My suggestion to feed the pups in their crates, in separate rooms or at the very least in vastly separated parts of the same room is something I will stand by.  In my experience with large breed pups, and normally more than 2 at a time, this works very effectively AND establishes peaceful eating habits.

espenser, you do need to go back and edit or remove your attacking post in response to Xerxes

David, I would never dispute that having littermates can be an absolute joy.  However, it is also a lot more work.  Perhaps to you and me, not so much, but to the AVERAGE dog owner, two pups are not twice the work of one.....but many more times. Under the right circumstances, yes, I would consider placing siblings,but the person would have to have nearly as much dog experience as I do for me to feel comfy cozy about it.

If you were a pack leader you would not be having problems walking your dogs like you said in the past

Where did I say I had problems walking my dog?  huh?

feeding them separetely solves the problem at that moment but not the cause,

Precisely WRONG.  Dogs are FA because they don't feel comfortable and safe when they eat.  Or because they are greedy gusses that want it all.  They feel threatened.  By eliminating the threat you boost the confidence level of the dog.  The dog is assured it will get it's food.  Therefore the dog becomes less likely to be FA.

Is the same mechanic as your beloved +R and treats,

Which shows how little you know about me or my training methods.  I mostly use playtraining because it works with super smart sighthounds like mine.  I haven't used a treat for training in quite a long, long time.  As far as +R being beloved yup it sure is.  I treat a dog like a dog-with the same respect he'd get from his packmates, not with a penchant for leash popping or a blind admiration and understanding of only one philosophy, based entirely upon debunked theory.

A good pack leader does not  get worried for errr like example  "cleaning up a little bit" while his members have some issues, that talks a lot about how much importance you give to your dogs

What does this even mean?

Wrong, do dogs need a treat everytime you tell them to sit because thats the way they learned? .........thank you, i didnt think so either

You had to use a treat to teach your dog to sit? 

No, but if a dog learns to rely upon the imposing presence of the alpha human to quell any sort of threat from the other dog, once that presence is gone, the threat still remains. 

Now if you follow Cressida's protocol, then I think things would work out well.  I think she used a very easy to use and well explained system.

Exactly i dont have food aggressive dogs because i never let them be in first place, i highly doubt that you tried that method before, besides i dont see any problem with one dog finishing before the other

You have a 20lb mophead of a dog.  Sure you dog sit every once in a while, but you dont' have a multi dog household. 

No it's not a problem if one dog finishes before the other, unless there are FA issues.

Thank you again for proving my point

Actually I proved my point.  Not yours.  I fed them seperately and the FA went away, then I could feed them together.  Where's your point?  I kinda lost it in there.

Not might, it works because i have done it when i dog sit, therefore i know if backfired or not, i'm sorry to disapoint you but it didnt, thats the difference between me and your "might", "probably", etc. those are just speculations and speculations is the only thing you have since you dont try it and when you did then you said yourself that there was any fights

Dog sitting does not mean you have a multi dog household.   Dog sitting means you have a dog in a totally different situation than he's used to.  I've dog sat before as well, I also had experience with a multi dog household while growing up.  We fed the dogs in seperate areas, sometimes seperate rooms (especially if one dog was on steroids.) 

You're right, all I have is speculation.  The OP has two pups that are going to grow up together- they were adopted out 3-5 weeks too early.  They missed out on a huge amount of learning dog language from their mother, they missed out on feed back from playing with the rest of the litter, and now one is showing food aggression.  The OP also has a small breed dog.  Hmmm should I speculate that everything is going to be peachy?  Or should I speculate that things could go wrong? 

Things could go horribly wrong so fast in this situation that even you **Content Removed** wouldn't be able to see it coming.  I'd rather the OP err on the safe side and NEVER let these problems creep up.  You, though, think it's gonna be hunky-dory to let these dogs grow up the way they are.  So sue me for trying to err on the side of caution, because I've seen first hand what FA can do to a dog. 

Ed, please go back and edit your post.  Be the bigger man and take the high road on this one please.