I went to a Cesar Millan seminar today.

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

ORIGINAL: dogslife
I would like to know when he is on tv, what channel and the time if anyone has that?

national geographic channel. i think the show is on fridays at 8 pm (maybe 9 pm). they show the reruns randomly as well.

 
Thanks for that.  I will give it a look/see! 

At the risk of offending both sides of the camp here:
 
I think what makes America great is that we can have discussions like this.  If we keep these discussions civil, without any negative connotations both sides will feel and should feel comfortable expressing their opinions.  We need to be able to give and take a little bit. 
 
It's easy to agree with the crowd and say "the emperor has a great new set of clothes" but sometimes it takes a child to say "the emperor has no clothes."  I think that in this case, there IS a pleasant medium.  The extremes are quite extreme.  There are positive points to either the "CM" way or the +R way, so both sides should admit to the good points.  There are probably bad points to both views as well.  Again, both sides should admit to those as well.
 
But we CAN learn from each other, and that's what forums and threads like these are for.
 
Sorry for such a long post, but it pains me to see bashing or off handedness occurring when it interferes with the learning process.

Here's my view on the whole CM issue. A professional in any field will make his/her job look easy to the untrained eye, because it is second nature. The main critisism I see against CM is that he is too quick to start using compulsion, with out trying some other alternative first. This can be explained in one of two ways (i'm still not sure which one it is). One, as many behaviourists state, he simply shocks a dog into submission, his one size fits all recipie. The second option, his years of experience have given him the ability to diagnose a dog in a lot less time that it would take a "conventional" behaviourist, so he goes straight into what seems a "one size fits all" but maybe, he makes subtle changes with each dog that go unnoticed to those of us who don't fully understand what he is doing.

The one thing I have noticed to happen since the whole CM fad started, is that people are now aware of the difference between a trainer and a behaviourist. Which is a double edged sword, again, on one hand we have more and more people that realize that the problems their dogs display DO have a solution, on the downside, due to CM making it look easy on TV, some of these people are left under the impression that it's a do-it-yourself kind of thing "how hard could it possibly be?". Another critisism made to the guy is that even though he advertises himself as a behaviousrist he has no formal training and is not recognized by any professional association. Kind of like the traditional vs. holistic medicine debate. I read his book, and I have to say I agree with his philosophy, most of it at least, as far as his methods go.... I'm not so crazy about them.

I read his book, and I have to say I agree with his philosophy, most of it at least, as far as his methods go.... I'm not so crazy about them.

 
I just wonder why the mention of this fellas name on a forum just always causes such a ruckus!  I mean is this person offensive or an ego issue?  I really just have to see him on the tv.  He must do somethings that are against some folks grain, and a lot!  Interesting at least.  I am wondering if it isn't like the Dr. Spock following for moms back in the fifties.  Everyone bought that book so they would know how to take care of the little stranger that they just gave birh to.!! [] But the man was actually a doctor.  Oh well.
 When people want to spend money, there are lots of ways to do that and there are clever folks who want that moneyand know how to get it...It is a living, huh?
 
Is the book enjoyable to read or is it written like a itemized guide of how to's etc.?

no..the book is not a how-to guide by any means. It is a combination of this guy's background and his ideology about dogs. It doesn't have any "step" recipies or anything like that.

At the risk of offending both sides of the camp here:

I think what makes America great is that we can have discussions like this. If we keep these discussions civil, without any negative connotations both sides will feel and should feel comfortable expressing their opinions. We need to be able to give and take a little bit.

It's easy to agree with the crowd and say "the emperor has a great new set of clothes" but sometimes it takes a child to say "the emperor has no clothes." I think that in this case, there IS a pleasant medium. The extremes are quite extreme. There are positive points to either the "CM" way or the +R way, so both sides should admit to the good points. There are probably bad points to both views as well. Again, both sides should admit to those as well.

But we CAN learn from each other, and that's what forums and threads like these are for.

Sorry for such a long post, but it pains me to see bashing or off handedness occurring when it interferes with the learning process.

 
Absolutely!!!  Well said Xerxes.  Again, I like CM for my reasons.  I jumped in on this thread because the OP was about going to a seminar that I would love to get to.  If I personally didn't like CM, I wouldn't even be reading these threads nor posting on them knowing they will turn ugly at some point!  What's the point??  Some of us like Cesar and some of us don't.  Not the end of the world in my book. 

I think the important point here is that we should choose what we find effective and what makes sense for "us" and our "dog" and implement our decisions in a humane and educated manner. There is no right or wrong, good or bad – for this subject providing we all remember kindness, morality and compassion is first and foremost.

 
yes, but make sure you think long and hard about your methods and don't pick one based on anger, frustration, habit, or, even worse, because you saw someone do it on TV. Even if you think clickers are stupid, or ecollars are the tool of the devil-- it won't hurt you to learn about their uses and what other people think about them and have achieved with them. Go talk to that "cruel maniac" who claims to re-train aggressive dogs with dominant dog collars. You might learn something, even if it's only to avoid dominant dog collars and people who use them like the plague.
 
I personally choose my training methods by how effective they are. I use mostly positive reinforcement, not because it's "more humane" , but because I've found it to be much more effective than corrections for every dog I've ever met-- for most situations. I have yet to find a truly  +R method that reliably stops dogs from chasing prey animals, barking hysterically, or leaving unfenced yards; however, negative reinforcement methods tend to work pretty darn well for these problems if properly and consistently applied, and bonus, don't traumatize dogs if done properly.

I have yet to find a truly +R method that reliably stops dogs from chasing prey animals, barking hysterically, or leaving unfenced yards; however, negative reinforcement methods tend to work pretty darn well for these problems if properly and consistently applied, and bonus, don't traumatize dogs if done properly.

 
I agree with you on that.
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

I have yet to find a truly +R method that reliably stops dogs from chasing prey animals, barking hysterically, or leaving unfenced yards; however, negative reinforcement methods tend to work pretty darn well for these problems if properly and consistently applied, and bonus, don't traumatize dogs if done properly.

I agree with you on that.

Sorry, but I don't.  You always damage a relationship when you use aggression to get your way.  Sure, it works, but the idea that it causes no damage is ludicrous.  I would much rather see my dog coming back to me and away from a cat when I say "leave it - come" with the attitude of "sure, what are doing next?" than I  would to see a dog simply come to avoid pain.  Their demeanor is totally different if you bother to look. 

You can't really believe that most, or even many, dogs can be taught to recall off a fleeing rabbit or even stay in their yards (in the owner's absence) using purely +R methods?
Properly applied, negative reinforcement is not aggression. Simply experiencing an unpleasant sensation does not cause trauma; lack of control and confusion causes trauma. Invisible fence: owner rewards dog with praise, treats, fun games for staying in yard. If dog chooses to try to leave yard, "the ground" zaps him. If he chooses to retreat into the yard, the unpleasant sensation stops-- he's in control of the sensation. If you've ever watched experts train dogs with ecollars you would swear the dogs think the humans are saving them-- teaching them how to avoid the aversive tickle. They clearly have no clue the stim was caused by the trainer. They trust their trainers and are happy to work (most ecollar trainers also use a lot of +R, which helps with the happy attitude). They aren't traumatized or shut down the way so many dogs trained with "dominance" and "collar corrections" end up-- these dogs often seem to believe their owner might attack them at any moment.

Properly applied, negative reinforcement is not aggression.

Thank you Mudpuppy.  I use both methods and very succesfully.  I have NEVER applied force or tramatised my dogs.  They are happy willing learners.

You can't really believe that most, or even many, dogs can be taught to recall off a fleeing rabbit or even stay in their yards (in the owner's absence) using purely +R methods?

 
Even though I have not, I think it can be done.  The main point being that your dog or any dog for that matter needs to think that no matter what else is out there his human has something more interesting.  I won't say it would be an easy thing to do, but with patience, I'll bet it can be and has been done.
 
As far as staying in a yard: isn't that what a fence is for?  I'm not sure that I, even if I didn't have sighthounds, would allow my dog to frolic in an unfenced yard unsupervised.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

You can't really believe that most, or even many, dogs can be taught to recall off a fleeing rabbit or even stay in their yards (in the owner's absence) using purely +R methods?
Properly applied, negative reinforcement is not aggression. Simply experiencing an unpleasant sensation does not cause trauma; lack of control and confusion causes trauma. Invisible fence: owner rewards dog with praise, treats, fun games for staying in yard. If dog chooses to try to leave yard, "the ground" zaps him. If he chooses to retreat into the yard, the unpleasant sensation stops-- he's in control of the sensation. If you've ever watched experts train dogs with ecollars you would swear the dogs think the humans are saving them-- teaching them how to avoid the aversive tickle. They clearly have no clue the stim was caused by the trainer. They trust their trainers and are happy to work (most ecollar trainers also use a lot of +R, which helps with the happy attitude). They aren't traumatized or shut down the way so many dogs trained with "dominance" and "collar corrections" end up-- these dogs often seem to believe their owner might attack them at any moment.

 
As I stated in another post, I use e-collars (or as they are called in beagle circles, shock collars). When I am training my dogs, they may be as far as 1/4 - 1/2 mile away from me. Remote training is the ONLY thing that can work when a dog is that far away and on inappropriate scent (off-game). They are not "stimulated" unless it's necessary and the lowest setting is used for the individual situation.
My dogs are NOT traumatized by using the e-collar and it has provided a much more reliable recall. Also, my relationship with my dogs has not been altered, if anything, it's stronger than ever. They trust me to keep them safe and to protect them from the "bad" bug.

mudpuppy, Just a thinking on my part about positive training applied to working dogs with enhanced predatory motor patterns.
 
Border Collies have intense eye stalk and chase motor patterns yet the people working with them seem to be able to train those dogs with positive training by training them to a whistle.  I was watching one person with his Border Collies as they were waaay out in the feild.  He would have different pitches of his whistle and the dogs would get down and stay down until he gave them a different command to perhaps out run another way.
 
It was pretty interesting watching these dogs.  I've also talked to many people with dogs with intense drive train their dogs to a down at the site of a prey object.  You may not be able to get a dog that is eye stalking to a recall...but, you can certainly train them to a down.  This way the dog still sees the object but will react to the down command which allows the owner to walk up and clip on a leash and reward.
I read this in the WDJ and have used it to a limited amount with my Rottweiler Athena.  She has downed on command a few times,  I just have to try to be more consitant and not just once every few years.[]
 
   

I'm not sure if we could ever get to the point of being able to do this off-leash, but I've done an okay job of training Marlowe to back up a couple steps and sit when he sees a squirrell while on leash. He'll lunge for a second and I say "Marlowe, stop." and give him a slight tug on the leash and he backs up until he's right in front of me and then if I touch his bottom (because his prey drive is so high that he pretty much forgets that he even has a butt) he'll sit. He's still in intense eye-stalk mode (apparently he never got the memo that he's not a sight hound), but he ceases trying to get at the animal and instead just sits and watches (extremely intently). Just watching the animal is quite rewarding for him though I'm sure not as rewarding as actually catching it. Once the animal is out of sight, I command his attention and release him from his sit and off we go.
 
He's not 100% on this by any means, but previously he was just lunging and jumping around uncontrollably at every single animal he saw and I was concerned he was going to injure himself. The problem comes if you have a working hunting dog, which I don't, and sometimes you want them to hunt and sometimes you don't and they have a hard time learning the difference.
 
I've read about soaking a hound's collar in the scent of the animal you don't want it to track, so that it gets so blase about the smell that when it smells it in the field it ignores it. Does that work?