I went to a Cesar Millan seminar today.

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

i dont spray our dogs with anything.

they are 100% clicker trained.

i was only using one of the examples mastiff mentioned.

 
I comprehend...[8|]

I took a clicker training class with my dog once. The trainer told us that if the dog started "missbehaving" to cross our arms and ignore him/her. Basically, not to pay them any attention. That removal of attention is what is considered a negative punishment, the dog WANTS your attention. Also, for walking on a leash, if the dog starts pulling, stop and try to get his/her attention. Stopping in this case I guess could be either a negative reinforcer or a negative punishment.

The words negative, positive, punishment and reinforcer here are not in an everyday context, where I agree, negative = bad, possitive = good, and so on.

I guess what happens is that unless you're not proactively making the dog uncomfortable, you are considered to be using "possitive only" methods.



By the way, I train my dog mostly off leash, so popping the leash is not an option, I rarely ever have to resort to any sort of compulsion, just very mild corrections here and there, but even those are few and far in between.

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

+R obedience trainers do break it down that way. 

+ R= The dog works to get things the dog likes.  Example:  Giving a dog a food treat the moment he achieves the sitting position.  Examples of +Reinforcers: walks, rubs, toys going outside, attention, petting, food treats, etc...

Neg. R= The dog works to avoid something  the dog considers unpleasant.  Example:  Releasing the pressure on a flat buckle collar the moment the dog achieves the sitting position.  Examples of  Neg. Reinforcers:  water spray, raising your voice, citronella spray, shaker can, choke chain corrections, being ignored, etc...

+Punishment= involves presenting a negative consequence to an undesirable behavior the moment the dog does the undesirable behavior.  Example:  Saying "NO!" when a dog chews on the couch.

Neg. Punishment= [color=#000000]involves [/color][color=#ff0000]removing   something good from the dog at the moment the dog performs an undesirable behavior.  Example:  Taking away the dog's favorite ball from sight when the dog leaves a sit-stay position before asked to.[/color]
 
Compulsion training is training using force to get a desired behavior.  Example: pushing down on a dog's hind end to put him in the sit postion.

"Corrections" refers to all types of punishment, both positive and negative.  Not all corrections involve physical force.  

 
Echoing eley... the words "positive" and "negative" in the context of operant conditioning (which the kind of training we're talking about here) are not value judgements. They are, as eley said, merely descriptive of whether a stimulus is added or one is taken away. I think some of the confusion comes when people use a phrase like "positive methods only" - in that context positive is a value judgement, and it overlaps with positive (not a value judgement) reinforcement training.
 
Eley's simple breakdown of the terms was correct. Mastiff, all of your examples of "negative reinforcements" are actually positive punishments, except for one (the release of pressure when the dog sits). Every correction I can think of is a positive punisher and not NR... I think mudpuppy explained it very well.

Since I actually watch the show, I have seen him use different techniques and approaches, depending on each case. In fact, he improvised something for a shy Visla that he had not tried before and it worked. And it was not aggressive or confining, it simply helped the dog be more confident in a public place.
 
 

He is such a nut, if he is unsure about a behavior that I want, he will begin giving me all the other behaviors he knows

 
Shadow has done that. Once, at Canine Comissary, I was getting him some fresh made treats. While waiting in line, he was trying every obedience trick he knew, trying to figure out which one was going to get him that treat.
 

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to think "profiling" is worse than the slaughter of innocent people

 
Amen.
 

Thanks Ron for posting your success story.

 
It depends on what day it is and who you ask. My dog, as estimated by one breeder is 50 to 80 percent Siberian Husky, regardless of dark coloration. According to mtDNA and what I can surmise of his case, he is essentially a large Siberian Husky with Husky/Lab appearance. He is a sled dog by birth-right. So, I walk him with a harness and mushing commands. And a well-respected person here told me I wasn't training him right, that I should be using the Easy Walk and I wasn't doing my wife any favors. Actually, she can walk him just fine in harness or collar, it's the aggressive, loose, untrained, ill-mannered dogs that accost us that give her a problem. I have used a scruff with him, more often in the past than now. The breed information I had found suggested that as the strongest correction and only when regular obedience is not working. My wife does it naturally, without even grabbing his fur. She places her hand on the side of the neck and with gentle pressure, he lowers himself and rolls himself. It wasn't something I taught her to do. She just does it naturally and he goes along with it. Regular obedience I accomplish with treats and play, watching for trigger signs and diverting before escalation (I learned that from watching CM. He would spot the signs of dominant stance and divert or correct, to avoid a problem) and always rewarding good behavior.
 
Anyway, at another time, a person on this forum wanted to teach their dog to pull for skijoring (ski pulling) but had so well succeeded in teaching her dog to heel, that the dog wouldn't pull. Trying to be PC, I suggested using an Easy Walk of Gentle Leader to teach the dog to pull. The same person who told me I wasn't teaching my Husky mix correctly again told me I was wrong. That you have to get the dog used to a harness and let them find the instinct to pull.
 
So, since I don't have creds like a DVM and a PhD on Behavioral Psychology, specializing in animal behavior, I can't know what I'm talking about. I simply relied on info from people who have bred and trained sled dogs for as long as most people here have been alive. To be fair, a sled dog such as the Siberian Husky is markedly different in temperment and ability and what makes a good sled dog is not what makes a good agility or off-leash obedience award winner. But, at times, it seems I can't win for trying.
 
My training viewpoint these days is more reflexive. I try to work with his drives and control his environment which will help achieve the desired responses, mostly. In fact, in a recent confrontation with yet another loose dog. Shadow was not the instigator and was quiet until the other dog displayed dominant aggression triggers and then lunged. Only then did Shadow start barking and trying to defend himself while I'm dancing backward in the street and trying to keep myself between them while the owner gripes me out because I used a curseword when asking them to get their dog.
 
Again, it depends on what day and who you ask.
 

Mastiff, all of your examples of "negative reinforcements" are actually positive punishments, except for one (the release of pressure when the dog sits). Every correction I can think of is a positive punisher and not NR... I think mudpuppy explained it very well.

 
You might want to write a letter to Animal Behavior College and it's founder and CEO Steve Applebaum and  let him know their curriculum is incorrect.    I quoted directly from a textbook.  They are not my examples, they are examples from a professional.  
 
"if you are spraying your dog with citronella, how is that removing something aversive? isnt that using an aversive (or negative) technique to get your desired reaction?"
It isn't.  The definitions I gave states the dog will work to avoid something HE thinks is unpleasant.  
 
"Spray your dog with citronella!?  You have got to be kidding, right?

Is spraying your dog with stuff and shaking loud things at your dog part of Cesar's therapy?  editing in;  and choking them with choke chains? ( That one would literally kill my hyper pup. "
 
No, these are not part of Cesar's therapy. Cesar is NOT a dog trainer.  But, I've seen many people on this board that recommend or use those techniques themselves.  Not unheard of.  You have never heard of using a can of coins to startle your dog and redirect his mind?  People use citronella collars to control barking.  These aren't horrible, abusive methods.  No one said anything about choking a dog with a choke chain. 

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

Neg. R= The dog works to avoid something  the dog considers unpleasant.  Example:  Releasing the pressure on a flat buckle collar the moment the dog achieves the sitting position.  Examples of  Neg. Reinforcers:  water spray, raising your voice, citronella spray, shaker can, choke chain corrections, being ignored, etc...

+Punishment= involves presenting a negative consequence to an undesirable behavior the moment the dog does the undesirable behavior.  Example:  Saying "NO!" when a dog chews on the couch.

 

ORIGINAL: Jones
Eley's simple breakdown of the terms was correct. Mastiff, all of your examples of "negative reinforcements" are actually positive punishments, except for one (the release of pressure when the dog sits). Every correction I can think of is a positive punisher and not NR... I think mudpuppy explained it very well.

 
I think Mastiff and Jones are both right- effectively, negative reinforcement is the removal of something unpleasant (including a positive punishment), so presumably if the water spray, can shaking, choke chain corrections are stopped once the behaviour is stopped, then it can be viewed as negative reinforcement.

Scenario: Tell me how you would handle it.
 
You have 5 dogs out hunting (rabbit) in a "pack". They are AT LEAST 1/4 of a mile away from you and they get the scent of a deer (not sure you all understand how far a deer can run in a straight line). They may or may not be able to hear you shouting at them when you KNOW they are running off game. How do you get them to stop running that deer?
 
Now, I will tell you, when I train my beagles, they wear ecollars when first starting out (after they know the basics). I don't always have verbal control of my dogs and if they do get a scent of "OFF" game (anything other than rabbit) and they start off on the track, they get "zapped" with a mild electrical stimulation. Now, all of you all can tell me how cruel I am and how I should NOT own/have dogs and I will tell you, "would you rather me have my dogs run over by a car or get so far out of range that they ended up lost in the wild?" My dogs have learned that the scent of deer means "bad" things happen. This is the ONLY way I can keep them safe when they are out of "range" of verbal commands. While they might be able to hear me if I shouted at them, they are "on scent" and all giving voice (barking) on the track (they are beagles, for heavens sake) and sometimes don't hear you giving commands at long distances. They do, however, understand a stimulation that they have come to assoiciate with deer = bad.
Now, ask me how do I know when they are running "off-game". It comes with experience and the understanding of animal behavior. I KNOW the difference between a deer-run and a rabbit-run. They (all animals) have a different running style or behavior. When a deer runs, it runs straight away and sometimes won't stop for a couple of miles. A rabbit, on the other hand, runs in large circles, so the dogs will make a large circle when running proper game. Now, if they are running off-game, the chances of them getting lost or hit by car are greatly increased because they will run for miles, crossing roads, and putting themselves in danger.
 
I would love for someone to  tell me how to prevent this with +R since you are suppose to "catch them doing something right" at the moment and ignore the things they are doing wrong. How in the HELL am I supposed to ignore the fact that my dogs are running and could be miles away in just a few moments?
 
 

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

"if you are spraying your dog with citronella, how is that removing something aversive? isnt that using an aversive (or negative) technique to get your desired reaction?"
It isn't.  The definitions I gave states the dog will work to avoid something HE thinks is unpleasant.  

 

so negative reinforcement is to either physically or mentally intimidate your dog to the point that he is trying to please you so that the abuse doesnt continue?

i guess that works for cold hearted people. i dont think i could look my dog in the eye, ask him to "sit" or whatever, and if he refused unleash some form of abuse on him. it isnt so important to me that i destroy our bond just so he will conform to my wishes. [sm=2cents.gif]

positive reinforcement when immediately following a behavior increases the probability the behavior will occur again under the same or similar circumstances.
negative reinforcement occurs when an aversive stimulation stops when the behavior occurs (example kid getting teased, spits on kids doing the teasing, stops teasing behavior) and increases the chance the spitting will happen again in similar situations.
punishment is the introduction  of an aversive stimulus that stops the behavior qucikly.  It is less likely to generalize as reinforcement based strategies
extinction the removal of reinforcement so that behavior deceases because nothing follows the behavior.  very very very few people can do this.
 

I knew a guy who is an avid hunter. He has a Yellow Lab, the big one that gets over 100 lbs. He uses e-collar. A Lab can run between 20 and 30 mph and can get out of earshot fairly quickly. So, he uses an e-collar. The dog was so well-trained that he can walk him off-leash. One could say that with the e-collar, he has greater freedom than my dog, because I don't use e-collar. I would say the use of a device gives the dog the boundaries that he must abide by.

guess that works for cold hearted people. i dont think i could look my dog in the eye, ask him to "sit" or whatever, and if he refused unleash some form of abuse on him. it isnt so important to me that i destroy our bond just so he will conform to my wishes.

 
Ummm, I have never sprayed my dog with anything.  These are examples from a book about obedience training.  However, ask how many here have used and are using citronella collars as we speak.  I think putting a spray of citronella in the category of abuse is a bit of a stretch.  If a spritz of citronella destroys your bond with your dog, there may be more problems there than you think.

whatever.......[8|]