I went to a Cesar Millan seminar today.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I'd be the first one to admit that you don't get far working with animals unless you have innate ability, or "instinct", but IMO, I don't buy it with CM.

Is that based on instinct? [] We're all capable of making judgements about people and their methods. Some things work better for individual people and their dogs than other things. This is the point I was trying to make before. It's up to us to judge what we want to take from people and what we don't like. Everyone's entitled to their right to make those judgements and apply them as they see fit. I rely on my judgement every day and every time I read or see something I could learn from. I MUST be able to judge whether what I read or see is valid or not, or whether it has applications relevant to me or not. If I couldn't, then I'd be hopelessly gullible and be doing conflicting things all the time. I suspect my brain would get a major meltdown.

I don't agree with physical punishment and I refuse to use check chains or any other 'correction' device in my training. I don't believe every problem we see in our domestic pets is a dominance issue. That's my right to make those judgements and apply them to my life and my dog's life. I think that some ways that people train their dogs is cruel and it give me the shivers, but for the most part I can't do anything about it. Those people have made their judgements as well. I can gently suggest alternative methods if I get the chance, and back it up with my scientific background for added clout, even, but that's all I can really do. Having shouting matches on forums with people that have already made their judgements and are very determined to stick to them isn't going to achieve much. Most people here are just trying to do what's best for their dogs. They know their dogs and have the ability to judge what's best for them. I don't think it's at all helpful for us to draw lines and say that side is fantastic, that side is downright evil, you're on the wrong side. If there's one thing I've learnt from science it's that everything does best when treated on a case by case basis. There are no catch-all treatments or explanations.

the basic points in CM's "philosophy" have helped me to have a great relationship with my dog.  I got lucky with him being pretty mellow by nature. 
 
The biggest problem I have with CM is the fact he has become a celebrity and is on TV.  Generally speaking this country is full of gullible people with little common sense. 
 
"This guy is on TV.  He  must know what he is talking about...I  will just copy what he does and everything will be perfect "
 
I can just see that happening and bad things being the result.  People need to know their own capibilities...and when to call the professional.

Perfect, PurplePets, perfect. I'm jumping in, but only to say two things:

1) Just because Brad Pitt hangs with Angelina doesn't make him smarter or more sensitive to me.  He's a celebrity--like Julia Roberts--and yet when they open their mouths to philosophize about something, we all listen. We all smile. We all "join the love circle." It's weird. Yeah, CM is a celebrity and all of these posts and emails and discussions just seem to help him make more money. Really.

2) I had a "leash corrective" trainer recently abuse my dog. Badly. I have never wanted to say anything "aloud" about it, for fear of hurting his or his family's feelings, but yes, that's what all of the physical training finally it came to. And it was bad enough that I ended taking her in for a few vet checks, acupuncture, and now surgery. The surgery could have been put off for awhile, but after all of this, I need to jump the gun now and take her in for it in a few days, pay $4k, and hope she recovers well. (I have total faith that she will.) 

I liked this trainer for a long time, and I still do, and I think he has great insight into dogs and dog behavior, and even owners/handlers, but after watching some of the hysicality that kept happening (over the course of a year), and watching that escalate--I began to question that type of training. (I've done "both types" and this is the one I stuck with longer simply because there were more advanced classes offered, which hasn't always been the case with the +R training here.) So, I guess it's all pretty personal. I've seen some dogs do fine with him, as do their handlers. Me? I got to where I couldn't concentrate because I was watching him out of the corner of my eye.

I'm not that "hands on." Not with kids, not with dogs, not with cats. I'm just not. I prefer not to be.(I worked as a counselor to troubled youth and that policy of mine worked to my advantage more than once when other counselors could be pushed to becoming more physical and then the legal trouble started.)
 
I've watched my dogs be pulled into a Down and it was so painful and so awful to watch--and they fought it and fought it and I wished so badly that I could have traded them places because I "got it" and they didn't. And I've watched my little girl (dog) shut down and stop doing anything and switch to trying everything because she couldn't figure out what it was she was supposed to do in order to avoid getting yelled at or getting popped.

Like I said--some dogs and people do well with very hands-on training; some don't. I have to do what works for me and for my dogs, and I have to be relfective enough to switch gears in a hurry in order to successfully train my "charges." So, I'm going with the clicker.

As an aside, I do struggle with their hopeful eyes when I don't have anything for them (you kow how you surprise them and how eternally hopeful they are), but that's a personal problem . . . []

PS--Ron: if you write the "raw" book, I'll buy it and I'll make everyone I know buy it, too!

Does Cesar use the same technique with all dogs?  Or does he use varying techniques for different dogs?  
 
Dogs have different learning styles. 

I'm sure he does switch techniques. You'd have to, you know? I'm no trainer but what works for one of my dogs doesn't work for the other. I only wrote what I wrote because I think being physical opens the door to problems. In my particular situation, we were getting ready for a show, the pressure was on, and my girl wasn't "into it" like our trainer thought she should be. It was one thing after another and it snowballed into a major bad move on his part.
 
It was the same thing when I worked as a counselor. To me, it's too easy to cross a line and end up smacking or doing an excessive "pop" on a teenager or a dog. I watched it happen with teenagers and I've watched it happen in dog classes.
 
So, why take the chance at all? I know there are times that a leash correction is necessary--at least for me because I'm a novice, but I really manage those because after awhile here's my question: when does that physical stuff become more about me versus my dog?
 
How do you answer that question? Who felt better after the abuse incident on my dog? The dog or the trainer?

Sorry, no bubble bursting needed here.
 
"I'm open to [other trainers'] beliefs and I'm open to their knowledge.
They close their minds. They say their way is the only way, and my way is the wrong way. That's not a very good leader."  CM

I've been told that I "get it", that I should be a trainer.  I remember as a young child playing at a friends house and the neighbor lady coming to get ME to get a bird out of her garage.  Why?  I was 6 or 7 years old...but she said I had a way with animals.  I don't know how she knew that, or why she thot that, but I did go into her garage and the frightened bird did hop into my hand and allow me to walk it outside to freedom.
 
I have always had the ability to "know" if a dog was a danger to me or not.  I've always been able to read body language correctly and often been able to change a frightened and perhaps agressive dog into a love bug.  So maybe I've got the right instincts. My foster pups leave my home pretty well trained to crate, to leash, to toileting outside and with some very basic obedience commands in place.   But that doesn't mean I should hang out a shingle.
 
Getting it, and understanding dogs doesn't make me a trainer.  Not without some training of my own.  Even tho the things that I do WORK for MY dogs.......

"I don't understand how a well-behaved and obdient dog who is that way from training with leash corrections can be some how effected without a owner knowing.  Are you saying they are now fearful of their owner?    "
 
No, I'm saying you have probably never encountered a truly well behaved dog that hasn't been shut down and don't know the difference-- I was once that way myself. Many people want a dog that doesn't do much unless commanded to do so, that's their ideal of a well-behaved dog. The dog lies quietly around until ordered to heel or fetch. The primary effect of using a lot of corrections on a dog is to make the dog afraid of making mistakes-- so he stops doing much of anything except when he's sure he's not making a mistake. You see force-trained dogs "freeze up" in competitions  and in real life when they are unsure. It's quite hard to teach such dogs new things because they are afraid of making mistakes. These correction-based methods of training were developed with and for really hard military dogs. Dogs that are bred to keep trying while someone is trying to brain them with a two-by-four. If your dog doesn't happen to have such a temperament, which most dogs don't, collar corrections are certain to cause some degree of trauma.
 
A big eye-opener for me was watching a clicker training demo. The joy in those dogs that you just don't see in corrected dogs. The willingness to experiment and keep trying. The ability to learn. The desire to work. An experienced clicker trained dog can literally be taught ANYTHING in minutes. Because they are willing to make mistakes-- they aren't afraid to try stuff and see if that's what mom wants today.

The primary effect of using a lot of corrections on a dog is to make the dog afraid of making mistakes-- so he stops doing much of anything except when he's sure he's not making a mistake. You see force-trained dogs "freeze up" in competitions and in real life when they are unsure. It's quite hard to teach such dogs new things because they are afraid of making mistakes.

 
Does Cesar use this method?
 
Glenmar, I think that you may have a "calling", LOL...You ever consider doing the formal ed for training?

CM's typical approach is to shut the dog down. He uses force, intimidation, and terror to stop problem dogs from acting. Most of his methods aren't over-the-top abusive, but they all involve physical force and intimidation.

The scary thing for me is that if you misuse +R training, you can mess up the training, but you can't mess up your dog. My husband has a very shakey grasp of +R becuase he frankly just doesn't care that much about training the dogs and can't really be bothered to learn much about it. He all the time screws up (using the clicker BEFORE the behavior as a way to call the dogs to attention! argh!) and it might set the training back slightly, but it doesn't damage the dogs physically or mentally. If you've got crappy timing, your training will go slower, but you won't screw up your dog's entire way of being in the world.
 
 BUT if you misuse physical punishments with your dog, you can certainly do a lot of damage both physically and mentally.  There's a reason why there's a disclaimer after every commercial break on that show saying NOT to do these things without consulting a professional. A +R behavior/training show would not have to have that warning.
 
And speaking of, why isn't there such a show on TV right now? Because I've seen some pretty amazing stuff happen with +R work with dogs that would look just as awesome on TV as what Cesar does. It's not as showy or flashy (because it's hard to compete with the alpha-roll for making an impression on a viewer), but it is mighty impressive and anyone interested in dogs I'm sure would be fascinated by the process. I mean hell, people sit around and watch the sea lions at our local zoo being +R trained for hours.

Mudpuppy,  I guess I can agree if what you are seeing is people who use force to encourage a dog, don't know how that would work.[&:]  For me and my dog he is encourage with positive and discourage from bad behavior with corrections.  Corrections were far and few between but worked wonderfully when needed.  He is not afraid doing things wrong at all!! So I am a lucky one.  When he doesn't listen to a command now it only takes a firm, hey out of my mouth and comes a romping.  I don't disagree with you and do agree that some people are just plain blind with corrections and teach their dogs to fear to them.  When I was growing up I had a uncle who litterly beat his dog everytime he went in the garbage and was so pissed that it didn't stop his behavior - his dog continue to get into the garbage every chance he got and my Uncle continued to beat his ass everytime with not positive results.  Lots of people hit their dogs, leash correct until they are choking there dogs etc and obviously it is so wrong.  I do however, believe there is a happy medium.  I have a large, dominate, confident dog with a mind of his own so leash corrections were very useful and successful.  He is also food motivated to say the least so positive treat training worked well on obdience work.  For little dogs I don't see how leash corrections would even be necessary.

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

I don't understand how a well-behaved and obdient dog who is that way from training with leash corrections can be some how effected without a owner knowing.  Are you saying they are now fearful of their owner?   

 
I don't understand it either. 
 
Odie has gone to being afraid of EVERYTHING to being afraid of many things.  He is even afraid of me, when I am wearing my cowboy hat.  []  He was/is being obedience trained using a combination of leash pops and positive methods.
 
When we go for our walks, whether it is around the farm or in town, he knows how to behave.  Sometimes, I just let him wander around, as long as he doesn't pull on his leash, but when I say, "Let's go, right here," he comes to my side and starts paying attention to me.  Is he motivated through fear?  I don't think so, but perhaps he is.  The thing is, I don't care.  I got the result I wanted.
 
My trainer wants me to use "right here" until he teaches the formal heel command, but what Odie is doing is heeling.  He does this on lead or off.  When I let him run loose on the farm, sometimes he will get so into running around being goofy or just sniffing stuff that he won't come when I call him.  I know we need to continue to work on that but, what he will do, is go down, even at a distance, when I command him to.  I can then walk up to him, put his leash on, and walk him home.  Does he do this because he is afraid of me?  Maybe, but I don't care.

ORIGINAL: Trevell


If I ever come to the point where I need a professional dog trainer/behaviorist's help, I'll be sure that he is expirenced with chickens, cats and whales as well.   Thank god for this thread!

 
[sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif]
 
I see you haven't been here for very long but, I think, you will fit in just fine.  []

Does he do this because he is afraid of me? Maybe, but I don't care.

 
why don't you care???? While a well-behaved dog is a joy, there is no need to make the dog afraid of you.
 
Let's talk about the difference between a correction and a negative reinforcement. A negative reinforcement is something unpleasant the dog can cause to end by his action. This empowers the dog and does not cause mental trauma/ shut down behavior (as long he understands the rules, how to turn off the unpleasant stimulation, and the unpleasant stimulation isn't so aversive that it causes trauma by its very existence). Dog is wearing a no-bark collar. Dog barks. Dog gets shocked. If dog chooses to not-bark, dog does not get shocked. Dog is wearing a prong collar. Dog pulls against the leash. Dog experiences painful pinching of neck. If dog chooses to not-pull, dog does not experience painful pinching. Ecollar training if properly done (escape training) is negative reinforcement-- the dog is taught he can "turn off" a mild electric shock by following a command he already knows. The trainer then creates a superstition in the dog that if he responds quickly enough he can "turn off the shock before it starts" and the dog will never need to be stimmed again for that particular command.
A correction is more correctly referred to as a "punishment". Dog can do NOTHING about stopping or avoiding the correction because he's already done the bad behavior-- we apply the correction in hopes he won't do the behavior in future. Corrections do not empower the dog, and are what can cause "shut down" dogs and aggression, mostly by dogs who truly have no clue why they are being corrected and have no idea how to avoid corrections in future. Dog is asked to sit. Dog does not sit. Dog is given a hard collar pop. Dog hasn't the foggiest idea why he got popped- he didn't sit because he thought the cue to to sit was "if I'm in the kitchen facing my owner and owner says sit, then I sit", and well, dog is not in the kitchen and is standing by the owner's side. 
Corrections are ONLY effective and non-traumatic if you are 100% sure the dog knows what you asking him to do, and he is choosing to deliberately disobey, and you can apply the correction with proper timing and intensity. Very rare to encounter such situations. Most dogs fail to obey commands because they are confused or distracted, not because they are "being stubborn" or "blowing me off". Most "bad manners" in dogs are perfectly normal doggy behavior, and the dog has no idea how he's "supposed" to behave, and corrections are really inappropiate, very confusing to the dog, and very likely to cause "shut down" of the dog.