I went to a Cesar Millan seminar today.

If I ever come to the point where I need a professional dog trainer/behaviorist's help, I'll be sure that he is expirenced with chickens, cats and whales as well.   Thank god for this thread!

What is it with Cesar Milan.  It is sure a controversial topic where ever you go on a dog forum.  Is it just because he is not school educated?  Or does he actually do something/teach something that is unethical???
 
 

Cesar is having a seminar in Lancaster, PA coming up but it's been sold out for months.  My girlfriend and I would love to go and see him in person.  He is very passionate about dogs and I enjoy watching him. 
 
Thanks Ron for posting your success story.  Being a calm, assertive pack leader does help and giving your dog the space he needed was his key.
 
 

I think in general what Cesar Milan does for and with dogs is great. I do not, however, think people should imitate him too much. I think the "calm assertive" attitude and exercising them til they're tired are GOOD things, but the physical corrections can go VERY badly. Personally I think it's fine for Cesar to do it, he does it at the exact right time usually, and in the right situation, but people who watch him and do it to their dogs, I'm sure usually do much more harm than good. If I wanted his methods used with Cherokee, I would only allow HIM to do it. I would NEVER do some of the things he does to dogs, simply because I'm not him, and not necessarily because they're wrong.
 
I also believe that totally positive methods can work wonders, and aren't damaging if you do it wrong, so it's much safer for someone who doesn't know jack. I'm just starting clicker training with Cherokee (actually, I started a while ago, but she wasn't getting it, and I was getting frustrated, so I gave it up and put the clicker away for a while). She gets it now, and I really believe I can make her more comfortable during times when she's usually uncomfortable. Corrections just have never worked for her, and probably made her reactivity worse, and I'd never heard of clicker training before I started reading here. We'll see how it goes.

I have two dogs (well 4 but I'm talking about 2 of them) Kota and Tasha.  Two completely different personalities and raised "basically" the same way.  I used slip collars and leash pops on both.

Kota, neutered male - willful, independent.  Has gotten 20 times better since using +R in listening to me and coming when called.  Has drive and learns fast, loves the game of agility.  Offers excellent behaviors in free-shaping.

Tasha, spayed female - obedient, stays close.  Is a "shut down" dog.  She will not offer behaviors in free-shaping.  She will not speed up in agility.  She performs everything very well and very calculated.  Precise and cautious.  She would excel at obedience if I asked it of her.  She does agility because I ask, not cause she likes it.

Two dogs, raised from 5 months and 3 months by me.  Using leash pops and slip collars.  One dog is ok and getting better with +R.  The other is so shut down, it's going to take months to undo what I've done with CM's techniques of leash corrections. 

Would you want someone teaching your kid who had no credentials? Would you want them to do just "what seems right to them"

 
Actually... When it comes to teaching, credentials don't mean much to me. And just FYI, a lot of private schools don't require teaching credentials.
 
I personally was homeschooled my whole life after a whopping 1 1/2 years in school. But I really was self-taught, at least in "high school". I sure didn't have teaching credentials, and I did "what seemed right" to me FOR me. Didn't go so badly, if I do say so myself. []

ORIGINAL: tashakota

I have two dogs (well 4 but I'm talking about 2 of them) Kota and Tasha.  Two completely different personalities and raised "basically" the same way.  I used slip collars and leash pops on both.

Kota, neutered male - willful, independent.  Has gotten 20 times better since using +R in listening to me and coming when called.  Has drive and learns fast, loves the game of agility.  Offers excellent behaviors in free-shaping.

Tasha, spayed female - obedient, stays close.  Is a "shut down" dog.  She will not offer behaviors in free-shaping.  She will not speed up in agility.  She performs everything very well and very calculated.  Precise and cautious.  She would excel at obedience if I asked it of her.  She does agility because I ask, not cause she likes it.

Two dogs, raised from 5 months and 3 months by me.  Using leash pops and slip collars.  One dog is ok and getting better with +R.  The other is so shut down, it's going to take months to undo what I've done with CM's techniques of leash corrections. 

This is what people are driving at when they suggest *not* advocating the leash pops and corrections until one has tried +R (but you must train properly, with a marker and a reward that follows the behavior, and not "bribe" your dog).
I wonder if your dog might have liked agility if learning had been made FUN from the beginning.  Why do we humans assume that our dogs won't cooperate because we make it interesting and fun, instead of do or die????  They are cooperative hunters in the wild, and no one is forcing them to go along for the chase...

Success is not the same as "right".  Leona Helmsley was successful - to a point.  Her nastiness finally did her in, but prior to that, people would have probably said she was a "successful" hotel owner.  And, some people continue to make money and do well financially, or in the media, despite their obvious lack of sophistication about their subject matter.  The medium is the message - read McLuhan.

I think in general what Cesar Milan does for and with dogs is great. I do not, however, think people should imitate him too much. I think the "calm assertive" attitude and exercising them til they're tired are GOOD things, but the physical corrections can go VERY badly. Personally I think it's fine for Cesar to do it, he does it at the exact right time usually, and in the right situation, but people who watch him and do it to their dogs, I'm sure usually do much more harm than good. If I wanted his methods used with Cherokee, I would only allow HIM to do it. I would NEVER do some of the things he does to dogs, simply because I'm not him, and not necessarily because they're wrong.

 
I agree.  The problem isn't with Cesar, it's with people thinking they can do this too when they don't know the proper timing.  If you don't have proper timing with +R then you will have problems also.  Timing is key in any method you use.
 
There is nothing wrong with exercise, discipline and affection in that order.  Nothing.  If you don't want to foster excited, jumping or demanding attention then don't give affection at those times.  That's all he's saying.  Cesar has never said you can't give affection or cuddle with your dog as I"ve heard some eople mis-quote. 
 
We all know dogs need exercise and we are a nation of  people who work and/or don't have the place or time to get our dogs the proper amount of exercise.  A ten minute walk twice a day isn't the tip of the iceberg for most dogs.  Hence, frustration, destructive behaviors, anxiety and other more serious issues arise. 
 
Discipline, for example, NILIF is also a good thing.  He is a huge advocate of that.
 
Cesar has also mentioned he is not a trainer, and after your dog respects you and is calm then you can train him more easily.  He has promoted +R obedience training on the program with the dog afraid of the hose.  Trying to train a dog that won't follow you or respect you is diffilcult at best.  And, please don't confuse the term "respect" with aggressive or cruel.  Seems like we still have the terms "dominant" and "aggressive" being confused all the time and they have nothing to do with each other.  Not in Cesar's context anyway. 
 
Cesar's book gives a much more enlightening insight into what he's all about.  Way more indepth than his show can do in 30 minutes.  For those that insist he's all "yank and crank" or uses all methods "from the 70's" that don't work, I"d suggest read his book.  If you have no interest in learning about him, then I'm not sure why even bother to post on the threads about Cesar if he just aggravates or angers you.     

Tasha, spayed female - obedient, stays close. Is a "shut down" dog. She will not offer behaviors in free-shaping. She will not speed up in agility. She performs everything very well and very calculated. Precise and cautious. She would excel at obedience if I asked it of her. She does agility because I ask, not cause she likes it.

Two dogs, raised from 5 months and 3 months by me. Using leash pops and slip collars. One dog is ok and getting better with +R. The other is so shut down, it's going to take months to undo what I've done with CM's techniques of leash corrections.

 
It's uphill right now, but Tasha can be a great agility dog if you keep at it.  I'd suggest clicker training her to play tug.  I have a shut-down-dog too and I never used harsh techniques with him.  (Although I did accedently say "No" once and it set us back weeks!)  It's only been in the last few years that he's realized that agility is about speed (and fun) as well as accuracy.  Ugh!  I wish I'd known to train speed from the begining.  Feel free to PM me if you want.  I don't want to derail this thread too much. 

Cesar Millan on his education:
 
"It's the difference between going to school and the dogs being your school. One is the intellectual knowledge, the other one is instinctual. I am instinctual."  CM
 
Did Steve Irwin have a degree in animal behavior?  Steve Irwin was self educated by living with animals his entire life.  He studied them and learned from them, not a university or books.  Love him or hate him, Steve did great things for conservation of animals and our environment.  Putting his money where his mouth is by buying thousands upon thousands of acres of land for conservation with his money, vs. wasting it on material crap and fancy cars. 

I agree.
 

I'm sorry to burst the bubble here, but "instinctual" is what everyone who doesn't have education tells you when they can't produce back-up for their theories.  I'd be the first one to admit that you don't get far working with animals unless you have innate ability, or "instinct", but IMO, I don't buy it with CM.  I think what he has is a lack of fear.  That's a world away from true instinctual understanding of the canine mind.

"POP!"
 
That was a bubble bursting.
 
Sound effects can add to a presentation.
 

Well with both Tasha and Kota, agility was always fun.  That game began after I learned about +R and never had an instructor that even allowed chokes on the course.  So it's all been plus R but it's only the last couple years that everything has been.  It hasn't been until recently that I realized what was "wrong" with Tasha.  Years (about 4) of chokes and collar pops and so on have caused her to shut down.  I can't "handle" her on a course because if I slow down, she does.  It's all about calculated control with her.  I will spend the next year working on speed and just short bursts of fun on the course and no "real" training.  The minute I begin "training", she shuts down.    But I'm pretty sure that had I used +R with her from the start of her life with me, she wouldn't be this way now.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that not every dog will respond to leash corrections.  So having a public figure on TV, using such a device, is going to make that one of the first things people try.  Instead of +R first, then if that doesn't seem to work, move up a notch in tools.

I think it's easy for people to grab a choke and get immediate results without investing in the long term effects of really being a leader and bonding with your dog through daily training and work.

CM's techniques are not without basis.
According to the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine:
 
"... dominance-related aggression is usually prevented by an owner's establishing his or her authority over the dog from puppyhood."
 
"The direct approach in dealing with dominance-related aggression exploits the dog's natural tendency to assume a subordinate role once it learns that dominance is not possible. It takes advantage of the fact that in a pack, dominant-subordinate relationships are established and maintained by force or the threat of force. Physical control is a type of nonverbal communication that dogs understand, for dogs clearly use force with each other... Restraint or shaking by the scruff of the neck is often appropriate for small dogs or puppies. A convenient technique for larger animals is to usea control or choke chain.Meeting force with force should not be considered inhumane or inappropriate, provided one only uses the degree of force necessary to maintain control and establish dominance."