Training vs. Psychology

Yes, I do walk my dogs once a day seperately. It's a pain but I think it really benefits them...well, Conrad primarily. Marlowe doesn't have a drop of leash reactivity or dog aggression or anything like that. Conrad is leash reactive, but not DA. We've determined that a good bit of reactivity is due to Marlowe's presence. He displayed very little reactivity until we brought Marlowe home. For the longest time I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on. DH and I walked Marlowe and Conrad seperately once a day at first so that I could train Marlowe on leash walking. But our second walk of the day was always done by me, and always together. And when I started mentioning Conrad's reactivity to DH, DH had no idea what I was talking about. For the longest time I thought it was me until it occured to me--DH walks Conrad by himself, I always walk him with Marlowe. It's Marlowe.

Then my hubsand broke his leg which meant they had to be walked by me and together all the time and even after he got better we still kept doing that. It allowed one of us to sleep in in the mornings. Except that we began to notice Conrad going down hill with his leash reactivity again, much more gaurding at the front window, and the dogs were squabbling more at home. So, we sucked it up and committed to walking them seperately once a day again. And Conrad has been steadily improving with his problem behaviors since then. We would like to start the click to calm protocol with him, but just the one change of walking him by himself once a day has helped him a lot. I have a couple theories about why...

--Since Marlowe does not react, when they are together Conrad feels like he has to make the display for both of them, or that he has to protect Marlowe in some way. This behavioral pattern becomes a habit and he starts to translate it in to other venues like the front window.
--Conrad was an only dog for several years and is naturally anxious, so perhaps walking him by himself, just one of us and him one-on-one once a day reassures him that he still has an important bond with us and that we're here to protect him and Marlowe, he needn't worry about that.

--Getting these two away from one another for a little while every day eases their own relationship with one another. They have never been the "snuggle buddies" kind of dog siblings. They get along and they like each other a lot but they are not BFFs. Sometimes they just need some time away from the other maybe.

And of course any kind of training or behavioral management is easier when you've only got one to worry about.

There's a dog down the street who is sometimes chained up in their front yard (not an egregious amount, I don't even see him out there every day, they just don't have a fence so they use a tie-out for potty trips) that just freaks Conrad right the heck out. Before we began walking seperately again, I could not walk past that house if that dog was out. Conrad would jump and lunge and vocalize and freak out. We've been walking seperately again now for about 2 months and last night I decided to give it a go and try to walk by the house with that dog out (I was walking Conrad but my friend was with me too and she had Marlowe, so they were together but handled seperately) and Conrad did really really well. Much better than he's done in a long time. He whined a little and was definately concerned about the dog (who totally FREAKS OUT himself when other dogs walk by, which is a major trigger for Conrad) but was able to keep four on the floor and walk by with little incident.

hay, no problem.

i think a lot of misunderstandings come from simple semantics.

words lke, balance, humanizing.... there are degrees to which balance occurs or one humanizes their dogs in relation to other activities such as exercise.


so yeah, plenty of room for different interpretations. i have a bad tendency to just throw the words out there without honing in on the degree to which i may use the word, balance (like on a scale of 1-10.... 1 being poor balance and 10 being poerfect balance... i may mean balance to me reings from say 7-10 in one post when i use the word... but on another day and another post, it may mean 10)

heh - just the way i am i guess.


houndlove - i just came back from a hike up sullivan canyon in the santa monica mountains - with all three dogs. they do great on leashes and to keep them from getting tangled up, i knot the two adult dog leases together with the knot being about 1-1/2 feet from the end where it attaches to their collars. this way, the two adults can not cross over each other. i keep puppy dog on his own leash and i can steer all three of them.

i'll have to take a picture the next time.

He whined a little and was definately concerned about the dog (who totally FREAKS OUT himself when other dogs walk by, which is a major trigger for Conrad) but was able to keep four on the floor and walk by with little incident.

excellent!

we have some "fence" dogs in our neighborhood and i purposely take our dogs right by them on purpose. in one week, i was able to tame mandi from lunging at the fence dogs by using instant corrections the moment she showed interest (before a lunge). at the moment of corrction, i would get her to calm down by sitting there with me, ignoring the fence dogs. the funny thing is - is that the fence dogs began to settle down as well - lol - now - we just walk by as if it's no big deal (but the fence dogs still get all riled up)

back to topic - - - - - - - - -

honestly "Training" just isn't cutting it

If training isn't cutting it, you aren't doing it properly.  That said, it is also important to establish a role with your dog where the dog considers you important (provider of resources, leader).  But, you can be a leader all you want, and it won't teach your dog certain behaviors that you can use as defaults so that he doesn't do the inappropriate ones.  Teaching a dog to sit instead of jumping up is a skillset, but not acknowledging the dog that is jumping on you is behavior modification - i.e. the dog stops doing anything that produces no result.
A well balanced companion dog is a combo of behavior and training work, and you really need not separate them from one another.
 

i was able to tame mandi from lunging at the fence dogs by using instant corrections

So, what do you think would happen if all the dogs suddenly met off leash?  You may have established control while your dog is on leash and with you, but did you really change her attitude about other dogs, or did you change her attitude about what she does with other dogs when you are on the other end of the leash?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

But, you can be a leader all you want, and it won't teach your dog certain behaviors that you can use as defaults so that he doesn't do the inappropriate ones. 

Ah the old  "the dog NEEDS to know what to do something instead", believe it or not, a dog does not need "default" behaviors (things to do instead) to make him stop doing things

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
So, what do you think would happen if all the dogs suddenly met off leash?  You may have established control while your dog is on leash and with you, but did you really change her attitude about other dogs, or did you change her attitude about what she does with other dogs when you are on the other end of the leash?

That would be a yes [] (some socialization would not hurt either)

Training separately is a great idea. My dogs behave differently as a group than one on one. Wolfgang & Tasha both take advantage of the situation. If the leash/collar were to suddenly break I don't worry about either dog. It has happened and they have just turned and looked at me, rather surprised.
 
I want to mention the Easy Walk harness. A dog that is used to pulling even a little bit, will find themseleves completely unable to do so. This gives a dog with some leash reactivity a very quick stop. I've found it far more effective than a prong collar with Wolfgang. A neighbor's lab went from trying to get every dog in the path to a very calm walking partner.
 
It really is up to you the level of training you want to have. My DH refuses to be consistent. OK. That means that we won't get rid of certain behaviors unless DH no longer walks Wolfgang,  and I need to instead manage them. Wolfgang is a wonderfully socialized dog and I have a huge amount of trust in his behavior. He's failed the Canine Good Citizen twice for leash pulling. Tasha & Floyd both passed on the first try. Yet Wolfgang has by far the best temperament. Wolfie and I go to the same chiropractor for accupressure treatments. I know it is painful. He tolerates it just fine and licks the doctor's hand when it hurts. The doctor then lets him have a break.  One time, the doc's Rat Terrier got loose and was hanging off Wolfies face while the doctor was still pressing. A dog that can tolerate that is without mental issues IMO. And Wolfie is Malinos/Akita, not what you'd normally consider to be an easy going dog. If someone with the skills I had at the time, told me they were adopting a six month old Mali/Akita, I'd be very worried. I think we were saved by his superior socialization. I don't consider my skills now good enough to repeat that mix and expect good results.
 
I finally decided to use the Easy Walk as a regular thing. To break Wolfie of leash pulling would require that he not walk with DH. DH takes the dogs out at 3:30 AM to feed the feral cats. The dogs love this. I find myself unwilling to deprive the dog of this activity and unwilling to get up and join. So Wolfgang will probably always have an Easy Walk harness.

Excuse me but a default behavior is valuable.  If  you are not doing one thing, you are doing another.  The default behavior offers a clear option when the current behavior is considered to be inappropriate.

So, what do you think would happen if all the dogs suddenly met off leash? You may have established control while your dog is on leash and with you, but did you really change her attitude about other dogs, or did you change her attitude about what she does with other dogs when you are on the other end of the leash?

mandi has been off leash in the dog park (which i don't really like) and have noted that she will not start a conflict. it's other dogs that come at her with aggression that start the conflicts.

outside the dog park, she is on a leash. period. for the sidewalk walks, a leash is mandatory (by law & there is traffic)

i am not ready to trust her off leash on a crowded trail yet. come the time that i do, i will have the e-collar on her with a radio zapper/audio thing around my neck.

so as far as i am concerned right today, this is still a work in progress and being such, there is not going to be an off leash meeting (as you ask) yet unless it is in a controlled environment.

the power of a stable pack would be most awesome... but i have yet to find one.




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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. ok []

ORIGINAL: mrv

Excuse me but a default behavior is valuable.  If  you are not doing one thing, you are doing another.  The default behavior offers a clear option when the current behavior is considered to be inappropriate.

I'm not saying is not valuable, i'm just saying is not a must

For more info:

Post 25

http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=329353&mpage=2&key=margarita񐷕

A balanced dog is in the state Mother Nature wants it to be in

You realize, of course, that some would argue that the dog is not a creation of "Mother Nature" (i.e. natural selection), but rather of human beings having interfered with Mother Nature. []  So, it is humans who feel the need to determine what is balanced and what isn't.  If we are thinking in terms of behavior, then any behavior that is pretty much at the center of a continuum from abnormal on one end to abnormal on the other end, could be considered balanced.  But, what does that really mean?  Are we saying balanced dogs are those that have a repertoire of behaviors that please us, or that are pleasing to them?  Are we saying that dogs that have a large skillset of human-taught behaviors and continually offer up new behaviors, are not as balanced as those who exhibit relative calm or are subdued in the presence of humans?  I think we need to admit that the dogs themselves are happiest in their own pursuits - sniffing, digging, eating, engaging in sex, drinking, lying in the sun.  Dogs might even consider the pleasurable sensations they feel while chewing your favorite pair of Skechers to be "balanced".  The balance, I'm afraid, is in the eye (or perhaps in the olfactory system) of the beholder.

anyway, all that i'm really doing here is reporting progress to date.

like i said - we're a work in progress.

i am not ready to trust her off leash on a crowded trail yet. come the time that i do, i will have the e-collar on her with a radio zapper/audio thing around my neck.

If there comes a time that you trust her, why would you need an e-collar?  It certainly won't keep other dogs from running up and antagonizing your dog.  Training would give you a better chance at being able to recall her.  And, psychology would tell her that you are the trusted leader, so paying attention to you is very rewarding. []

If there comes a time that you trust her, why would you need an e-collar?

is human trust 100% guranteed?

that's why...

back-up.... just in case my trusting expectations are not fullfilled.

It certainly won't keep other dogs from running up and antagonizing your dog.

no. and neither would a "come" command if the dogs you spoke of in an earlier post decided to come in charging, off leash, with agressive intent, as could be a legitimate scenario based upon your earlier comment:

So, what do you think would happen if all the dogs suddenly met off leash?

it could happen in a dog park.

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Training would give you a better chance at being able to recall her.

depends upon the scenario:
if your dog was in close proximity to you already and some other off leash dogs came charging in, then what will you do? i'd hope to have a calm and submissive dog so the chances of a confrontation are minimized.
on the other hand, if your dog was 50 feet away from you chasing after a ball and the off leash dogs came charging, then by all means, yes, i would hope the dog would recognize my "com-mere-man-di" command and come towards me.

did i ever say that i never train our dogs?

how many of us here have black and white definitions of what constitutes training and what constitutes rehabilitation? additionally, how many of us here believe there is a high degree of overlap or no overlap whatsoever?


.:.


here's to hoping my words come out OK here - but that's not 100% either, just like my trust or gut feel instincts.

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

is human trust 100% guranteed?

that's why.

back-up.

[sm=huh.gif]   Sorry, I don't get your point. 

Anyway, I would trust my dogs to return to me when I call.  If I couldn't, I would simply assume that they haven't earned off leash freedom yet. 

Anyway, I would trust my dogs to return to me when I call. If I couldn't, I would simply assume that they haven't earned off leash freedom yet.

there comes a point in time when you detatch the leash.
your dog has done well up this point and you believe it is time.
you trust her to follow your commands and so you take her for a hike on a popular trail
another group comes around the bend with two or three dogs off leash and one of them charges your dog., almost instantly
in the rush of primal instinct, your dog engages in defense perhaps
at the same time (to react) you remain calm and collected giving out a "come here" command
but in the heat of the moment, the dogs are engaged
the energy excites the other off leash dogs and they enter the confrontation
you begin to get excited and begin to yell out "com - come here - come" but now there is a full blown fight


what happened to your trust that told you that your dog would never do this first time off a leash?

are your TRUST and your EXPECTATIONS guranteed to ALWAYS BE correct?


it is true that in this situation, an e-collar may fail as well.


the point of this post is this: is trust guranteed 100%?

Mod's note: Topic reminder, here's the last post from the OP:
 

ORIGINAL: Sera_J

I realize there is a difference and that I hit the nail on the head, Espencer, thanks for you insight []

My girls are only dog agressive when walked together... and sometimes with hyper-big dogs when off leash. Otherwise they are usually fine. Missy has an unknown history I adopted her at approximately 2 yrs old from the HS and Nikki was socialized but had some run ins with larger dogs (accidental stuff, due to the difference in size) at classes or the dog park.

I guess my question to you is what is the difference and what should is the issue? Psychology or training?

Thanks again! []

 
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