Training vs. Psychology

I've noticed, most of the problems on TDW are with dogs that get affection ONLY or very little exercise and discipline to balance it out.

yes, i should have indicated that in my post

no exercise is a baaaad thing. we've got some dogs in our neighborhood that never get walked. the owners just thing that letting them out in the front yard is good enough. well whenever my pack walks by them, the dogs behind the fence go bezerk. our big girl used to want to charge them but i've successfully weeded out that behavior - so now, we just keep on walking. i will occasioanlly stop in front of the house with the two dachsunds that go bezerk and just have mandi sit down while i just stand there quietly. the dogs going bezerk eventually calm down when they realize we're not paying any attention to them - LOL - but the next day, if we go the same way, they just go bezerk again.

The only "aggression" (and I hesitate to call it that) that goes on here now is between our alpha (Cara) and our newest dominant girl (B'asia). At 6 months, B'asia is applying for the position of alpha and Cara's not happy with it. But they're working it out.

it's just a matter of time when our pup goes alpha over saler's fear agression towards the pup. saler was terribly abused and does not like changes. changes make him anxious. when we brought in the new pup, he was very standoffish towards jasper. he's snarled at him and charged him when jasper get's to rambunctious around him.... but this agression is beginning to taper off - somewhat. when i am around, he never exhibits the agressive bahavior. anyway, i do have some work to do with saler and what he really needs is to be put into a large group of dogs for some "power of the pack" therapy. now since jasper is an alpha to be ( he was the litters alpha pup and has quite a strong will), there may very well be one fight or challenge that reverses the heirarchy... i'm almost certain of that.... and what i am hoping for is that will be the end of that.

all three do well on their walks together and i will often position saler right smack in the middle so that puppy walks right next to him on his right. i believe the migration walks are helping saler tremendously.


on guard dogs - mandi's our guard dog. All of our dogs will bark and sa;ler usually initiates the first bark but when that occurs, mandi takes charge: She can become quite intimidating. She is a mix. We think she has some catahoula in her but she may also have some german shepherd or rottweiler in her on top of the aussie in her blood. hard to say. She's about 90 lbs and she is strong.... she runs like a frickin' horse with a gallop sorta.

and yes, aussies are naturally protective dogs and somewhat reserved around strangers. anyway, i don't think of what i am doing as training per se - it's more about engaging the dogs together as a pack so that they can coexist in harmony so to speak - whych has everything to do with their psychological structure.

 

what do you think she's mixed with:

Ok  I will start a task analysis approach to desensitizing dogs on walks as a seperate thread. 

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote
what do you think she's mixed with:

Rottie. Her facial markings and structure around the eyes are totally Rottie. Great dog! And she should be an excellent guard dog.

mrv, thanks!

Hi SeraJ,

Has the conversation here been helpful to you so far? Would you like to present more of the issues with your dogs for specific advise in this thread? You could post more info and change the topic header to point out the direction of the discussion, or, to attract the most focused attention, you could frame the problem in a new thread like, "need help with dog-dog aggression" in the "Dealing with Aggression" section.

Thank you for your help guys... work is busy this morning.

But I will be back to answer questions and read your posts in better detail.

Thanks again! []

well balanced dog over a dog that knows all the tricks in the book

 
I think a clarification would be good. What is meant by balanced? A dog knowing plenty of obedience tricks might also be balanced. That is, I'm not sure the two are separate or what the definition of balanced is. I know what I think of as balanced but it may not necessarily match yours or others ideas.

see - here i go again.

it shouyld have been stated like this:

i'll take a well balanced dog over a dog that knws all the tricks but is unbalances anyday.

how's that?

i am afraid that language is one of my downfalls - must be the autism.
what i often do with terms is imply a braoder sense of meaning and then what i see in return is everyone's razor sharp focus pinning me on certain definitions as they have it defined.

balance may mean several things - for me, it's sorta about not going overboard in dominance, or sumbission - but centered without exibiting either extreme.

same with when i said humanizing earlier - i meant it in reference to those who do balance their dogs with exercise or discipline.

sorry if i torqued anyone off today. my intent here is to learn and work with ideas and thoughts by engaging with others. i'll work on trying to be clearer with respect to the use of words (no guarantees here, ok?)

Balance – A balanced dog is in the state Mother Nature wants it to be in – as a calm-submissive pack follower, who is fulfilled physically with exercise; psychologically with rules, boundaries and limitations; and emotionally with affection from its owner.

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/tips/glossary.php

A well-trained dog in the sense of traditional dog training doesn#%92t necessarily make for a balanced dog, any more than a Harvard degree makes for a balanced human being (subject 3 fromhttp://www.cesarmillaninc.com/blog/Season2ep18.php)

what i often do with terms is imply a braoder sense of meaning and then what i see in return is everyone's razor sharp focus pinning me on certain definitions as they have it defined.

Guilty.  I do it to my husband too, poor guy.  I'll try and remember to out the razor down!  [sm=meditate.gif]

What is meant by balanced? A dog knowing plenty of obedience tricks might also be balanced. That is, I'm not sure the two are separate or what the definition of balanced is. I know what I think of as balanced but it may not necessarily match yours or others ideas.

 
I think we might all have different ideas, but IMO a dog that is happy and confident is in a better position to learn new tasks. I also think it is quite possible to have a happy, emotionally stable dog that exhibits behavior humans find less than desireable, due to lack of training.

I realize there is a difference and that I hit the nail on the head, Espencer, thanks for you insight []

My girls are only dog agressive when walked together... and sometimes with hyper-big dogs when off leash. Otherwise they are usually fine. Missy has an unknown history I adopted her at approximately 2 yrs old from the HS and Nikki was socialized but had some run ins with larger dogs (accidental stuff, due to the difference in size) at classes or the dog park.

I guess my question to you is what is the difference and what should is the issue? Psychology or training?

Thanks again! []

A well-trained dog in the sense of traditional dog training doesn#%92t necessarily make for a balanced dog, any more than a Harvard degree makes for a balanced human being

this is true
and sometimes, there are well trained dogs that are well balanced as well.

balance is to energy
as
training is to education

My girls are only dog agressive when walked together... and sometimes with hyper-big dogs when off leash. Otherwise they are usually fine.

when they are dog agressive, what kinds of corrections re you giving THE MOMENT you see one of youir dogs begin the "stare"
also, what kind of energy are you projecting before and after an agressive encounter?

balance may mean several things - for me, it's sorta about not going overboard in dominance, or sumbission - but centered without exibiting either extreme.

same with when i said humanizing earlier - i meant it in reference to those who do balance their dogs with exercise or discipline.

 
Thanks for clarifying your position and I wasn't trying to pin you down, as it were. Sometimes, we can mean something different with the same word. And it's happened to me more than once.
 
To me, balance means that the dog is generally happy or secure in his/her environment. And this may be contextual or different for different dogs. Example, within the limits of Lori's management, Willow could be considered balanced. Some things could unbalance her. Let's say that Willow couldn't handle being at a dog park. Well, one doesn't have to go to the dog park to have a balanced dog.
 
Maybe, more accurately, I don't see the need for equal amounts of corrections and rewards as necessary for balance. That is, the balance is not about me. It's more about my dog's response to his environment. Which means that balance is relative to context.  And that's only my opinion.
 
But I appreciate you clarifying yours and I even appreciate Spencer providing the CM idea.
 

ORIGINAL: Sera_J
My girls are only dog agressive when walked together... and sometimes with hyper-big dogs when off leash. Otherwise they are usually fine. Missy has an unknown history I adopted her at approximately 2 yrs old from the HS and Nikki was socialized but had some run ins with larger dogs (accidental stuff, due to the difference in size) at classes or the dog park.

You might want to PM houndlove about the dual dog walking, she talks about walking her dogs separately once a day - she makes some great points about doing that. Or maybe she'll find this thread. Badrap has also dealt with that, but I haven't seen her posting lately - it's worth sending her a note! []

I'm not sure, but I think you're asking what kind of approach you should take in assessing and rehabilitating your dogs' behaviors. Should you focus on a holistic, balanced approach, or something more specific and focused, like a particular training protocol (like rewards training, or rewards/corrections conditioning)? From what you're saying, I'm guessing you are less interested in focusing on formalized training as the cornerstone of your leadership role with your dogs, and more interested in looking at the organization of your 24/7 lifestyle with your dogs. Ultimately, of course, we all use some mix of it all. []

Do you practice NILIF with your dogs? That's generally a great place to start, whether you focus primarily on training protocols or social relationships with your dogs, or both! k9deb.com/nilif.htm

As for aggression, here's a thread that includes ideas drawn from rewards-based training, traditional training, and lifestyle management:http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=353675&mpage=1&key=%F1%96%96%AC

mrv's suggestion rings particularly helpful IMO. The obedience, agility and herding classes we've taken have given Ixa lots of opportunites to be calm around other dogs.