Training vs. Psychology

One of the trainers we worked with used his dogs to test client's dogs when called in to assess aggression.  He claimed, and from what I've seen I believe it, that his dogs would take a bite before they'd break a down-stay.  Those dogs were AMAZING.  He had no doubt that his puppers would listen to him, absolutely.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Mod's note: Topic reminder, here's the last post from the OP:

ORIGINAL: Sera_J

I realize there is a difference and that I hit the nail on the head, Espencer, thanks for you insight []

My girls are only dog agressive when walked together... and sometimes with hyper-big dogs when off leash. Otherwise they are usually fine. Missy has an unknown history I adopted her at approximately 2 yrs old from the HS and Nikki was socialized but had some run ins with larger dogs (accidental stuff, due to the difference in size) at classes or the dog park.

I guess my question to you is what is the difference and what should is the issue? Psychology or training?

Thanks again! []

Focused back-and-forths between individuals may be taken to PM, a new thread, or refocused to serve this thread.

A training routine is the best way I know of to balance a dog emotionally, especially one which uses positive reinforcement.  You teach the dog that making you happy benefits both the dog and the human, you and your dog learn to communicate with each other, and you and your dog spend quality time with each other, quite apart from the fact that learning new thing takes alot of mental energy (which relates to physical energy).

Whats not to like?

The training center that I work for (not the one I apprentice for) is  . . . odd.  I began taking classes there to learn their philosophy as I'm always one who wants to learn different techniques.  Well I found it . . . dry to say the least.  For the first couple of weeks I couldn't figure out why but then it dawned on me: they were teaching us how to train.  That was it, just train.  There was no handling involved, no discussion of life outside of "this is how you teach a dog to sit."  At a staff meeting a request was made to the trainers to train the daycare staff in handling the dogs so that they could keep it consistant with the training centers methods.  A dead silence was met as THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS ON HANDLING THERE!  This scared me.

I think . . . hell, I KNOW, that to properly and effectively train a dog you need to not only know how to train a dog, you need to know how to handle a dog.  The first step in both is learning canine behavior.  Once you know why a dog reacts the ways that it does, only THEN can you figure out a training and handling method that can work for you.

ORIGINAL: SisMorphine

The training center that I work for (not the one I apprentice for) is  . . . odd.  I began taking classes there to learn their philosophy as I'm always one who wants to learn different techniques.  Well I found it . . . dry to say the least.  For the first couple of weeks I couldn't figure out why but then it dawned on me: they were teaching us how to train.  That was it, just train.  There was no handling involved, no discussion of life outside of "this is how you teach a dog to sit."  At a staff meeting a request was made to the trainers to train the daycare staff in handling the dogs so that they could keep it consistant with the training centers methods.  A dead silence was met as THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS ON HANDLING THERE!  This scared me.

I think . . . hell, I KNOW, that to properly and effectively train a dog you need to not only know how to train a dog, you need to know how to handle a dog.  The first step in both is learning canine behavior.  Once you know why a dog reacts the ways that it does, only THEN can you figure out a training and handling method that can work for you.

It sounds as if you have found a not so great training center.  I don't think anyone would argue that a person does not have to know something about canine behavior to train a dog, but any trainer (or dog training instructor, I should say) worth their salt will give some instruction on dog behavior in their classes.

GoldenAC, don't worry, the OTHER center that SisMorphine is involved with is a great place for that. []   You can't separate the two (training & "psychology") if you want be effective at creating a well balanced dog suitable for any task - companion, competition, or work.  When I do puppy class, for example, I know that most of the people there will never go on to anything else - but I want them to be able to even if they don't do so until the dog is five years old.  So, every puppy play time before class, as well as some of the class time, is spent with my doing a running (mostly humorous) commentary on the intricacies of dog behavior and handling.  In between, they are taught to train, and that involves not only teaching the dog a behavior, but why it's necessary to put the dog on a schedule of variable reinforcement and proof the behavior with escalating levels of distraction.  If you think about it, when dogs have that level of distraction training, they usually have very good off leash control.  Nothing in life is ever 100% (except death and taxes, I guess), but a dog can certainly be trained to a level that will help insure his response to your signal even under distracting circumstances.  That is always done, IMO, by a combination of training expertise and good behavior management.  They are inextricably intertwined.

Ah the old  "the dog NEEDS to know what to do something instead", believe it or not, a dog does not need "default" behaviors (things to do instead) to make him stop doing things

 
That's actually true.  But, it is much more pleasant for the dog, and usually for the owner, if the first response to an inappropriate behavior is a "cue" or a default behavior, than a correction.  Corrections do sometimes stop behavior, but often they just stop it momentarily.  So, if you can change the dog's ideas about what to do when "x" happens, it makes life a whole lot easier for the dog and the handler.
JMHO

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

But, it is much more pleasant for the dog, and usually for the owner

 
I think that is more about the second part of that sentence and based on personal preference only, nothing else

I think that is more about the second part of that sentence and based on personal preference only, nothing else

 
I think it is the whole sentence. A dog that knows what to do after training will do it, even to seek the reward. Later, it becomes classical and even a default behavior. And yes, it pleases the owner, too. In some instances, I, the alpha, leader, grand poobah, whatever, decide what Shadow should do, rather than let him decide what to do. And I can do that better by training him with motivation for what I want him to do than to correct him after he has reacted naturally, doing whatever he thought was best. IMHO, the training gives him a "thought path," to quote a former thread, that coincides with what is best for both of us.

ORIGINAL: ron2

In some instances, I, the alpha, leader, grand poobah, whatever, decide what Shadow should do, rather than let him decide what to do.

That didnt sound like a good thing [8D]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

GoldenAC, don't worry, the OTHER center that SisMorphine is involved with is a great place for that.

It's true.  Trust me, GoldenAC, they all hear the "Guess what they said at work" whenever I go up there.  I run the daycare and boarding at my 40 hour a week job, so I can ignore the training if I want to

hell, I KNOW, that to properly and effectively train a dog you need to not only know how to train a dog, you need to know how to handle a dog. The first step in both is learning canine behavior. Once you know why a dog reacts the ways that it does, only THEN can you figure out a training and handling method that can work for you.

 
I disagree. All animals respond to operant conditioning. You don't have to know anything much about their psychology or behavior, all you need to know is what motivates that particular animal and figure out a way to communicate with the animal.  You can train goldfish using the exact same methods you can use to train dogs, chickens, cats, horses, people...

How is

you need to know how to handle a dog. The first step in both is learning canine behavior. Once you know why a dog reacts the ways that it does

functionally different from

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
all you need to know is what motivates that particular animal and figure out a way to communicate with the animal.

??

you don't need to know WHY a dog does something in order to modify the behavior.  It's often interesting to speculate, of course.

How is

quote:

you need to know how to handle a dog. The first step in both is learning canine behavior. Once you know why a dog reacts the ways that it does

functionally different from

quote:

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
all you need to know is what motivates that particular animal and figure out a way to communicate with the animal.

 
The difference is this. The first idea is about handling a dog, with, I imagine, an implication to physically handling and or correcting. The second idea is that you don't have to have "special" "dog whisperer" skills. You just need to find what motivates the animal and find a sound that the animal hears that equals the object of desire as a reward.
 
The first person states that you need some way of handling the dog and adapting a method to it and the first person says the one skill you need is motivation.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

you don't need to know WHY a dog does something in order to modify the behavior.  It's often interesting to speculate, of course.

So according to you, lets say that i dont walk my dog, then my dog gets frustrated for lack of exercise and becomes aggressive for so much frustration; can i still modify her behavior even when i still  dont walk her? i mean, if we dont need to know why she reacts that way that means that i dont need to know that i should walk her more instead? i just need to teach her how to sit and then the problem is solved?