The Dog Whisperer??

how many horses have you met?  they have the same social structure and much the same psychology and drives as dogs.  I use the same training techniques on both species with equal success.

The "bullying alpha" approach would be to "walk down" the horse, i.e. irritate him by making him move until it's less effort to be caught than not be caught. Submissive compliance forced upon the horse vs. the horse being allowed to choose to comply.

Which approach sounds more like CM's approach?  Which approach would you prefer to have inflicted upon you?

But this is also Rashid's approach in a round pen. Make the right decision easy and the wrong decision difficult. A horse that walks away will be driven away by him at a faster pace. He's allowed to move away, but he'll have to work for it. If the horse offers so much as a glance, he is rewarded by removing the pressure for him to move. This is not bullying because the horse learns that Rashid's responses are predictable and fair. He can trust Rashid because he knows what to expect and Rashid in turn offers to communicate at a speed and in a manner that the horse can understand.

how many horses have you met?  they have the same social structure and much the same psychology and drives as dogs.  I use the same training techniques on both species with equal success.

They are VERY similar, with an important difference. Horses are a prey animal. Dogs are predators. A horse's main instinct (according to Rashid) is to conserve energy in case it needs to flee. I'm not sure I can see how that directly applies to dogs. I can see how Rashids observations of desireable leadership qualities (low-confrontation, predictability and calmness) can apply to both species, though. I see he has written a new book with stories about horses and dogs. I'll have to see if I can get my hands on it. I'd really like to read his observations on dogs.

horses are not dogs, different phsycology

 
Horses, dogs, humans, dolphins, fish all respond to operant conditioning, positive and otherwise. Short answer, we do what works, what is rewarding. We avoid what is not rewarding to us. Example, a person likes to play guitar. So, they work hard and fast, in order to reward themselves with more time for playing guitar. For some who don't make much money, they will work as many hours as physically possible to have the money they need and/or want. A person likes to exchange ideas on a forum. So, the work as best as they can and arrange time in the day to so. They are working towards their reward. In the cross species example of horses and dogs, in either case, you are leading them to their reward, your way.
 

I dont think nobody here wants to irritate his/her dog first to make him being calm as mudpuppy suggests, thats actually contradictory, is like saying "i want you to be dry so i will get you wet first"

I dont think nobody here wants to irritate his/her dog first to make him being calm as mudpuppy suggests, thats actually contradictory, is like saying "i want you to be dry so i will get you wet first"

 
I don't understand how this relates to Mudpuppy's posts. Using calm, consistent, non-pressuring techniques reduce irritation rather than first creating it.

ORIGINAL: Stacita

I dont think nobody here wants to irritate his/her dog first to make him being calm as mudpuppy suggests, thats actually contradictory, is like saying "i want you to be dry so i will get you wet first"

I don't understand how this relates to Mudpuppy's posts. Using calm, consistent, non-pressuring techniques reduce irritation rather than first creating it.

I dont know if you are reading the entire thread or not, if not then here it is

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

The "bullying alpha" approach would be to "walk down" the horse, i.e. irritate him by making him move until it's less effort to be caught than not be caught. Submissive compliance forced upon the horse vs. the horse being allowed to choose to comply.

Actually, here's the entirety of mudpuppy's post:

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

well, we all know animals are unpredictable [8|]

back to Rashid's concept of passive leadership, one example he gives is a horse that will not be caught. The "old man" gives the horse a choice-- he can not be caught and remain alone in the pasture, or he can be caught and go to a different pasture and re-join his herd. The horse chooses to comply with what the "old man" wants in order to get what he wants. Doesn't that sound suspiciously like NILIF? Non-confrontational, non-physical, animal gets to freely choose, human carefully sets it up so the animal is likely to choose what the human wants the animal to do.

The "bullying alpha" approach would be to "walk down" the horse, i.e. irritate him by making him move until it's less effort to be caught than not be caught. Submissive compliance forced upon the horse vs. the horse being allowed to choose to comply.

Which approach sounds more like CM's approach? Which approach would you prefer to have inflicted upon you?

She is describing her distinction between passive and active styles of eliciting behavior, using Rashid's concept as a model for passive leadership, and implying Millan's style is closer to a "bullying" model. Mudpuppy is not suggesting that anyone should irritate their horse.

espencer, if that isn't clear, please ask for clarification, rather than challenging a position that has not been presented.

Oh no, it is clar as water form the beginning, mudpuppy's suggest that CM does the same (i'm not saying that mudpuppy does it herself)
 
If CM really does it that way or similar (as mudpuppy suggests) then he will be contadicting himself, thats why i posted:
 
is like saying "i want you to be dry so i will get you wet first"

mudpuppys comments on horses and rashid made me recall watching an episode of cm where he basically chased a dog round the owners garden until it was tired and allowed him to approach and attach the lead.  Comments?

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

mudpuppys comments on horses and rashid made me recall watching an episode of cm where he basically chased a dog round the owners garden until it was tired and allowed him to approach and attach the lead.  Comments?

 
Well dogs dont have a remote control, he cant help the dog from far away [], the dog might be afraid because CM didnt step back as other people did in the past but CM showed that he was not there to hurt him but to help him with a calm approach after the dog got tired

Was that the episode that featured a white (lab?shepherd) that belonged to a woman in a wheelchair and her 2 sons, or am I mixing episodes?

The scene in the yard reminded me of how handlers approach and capture feral animals. He kept limiting where the dog could go, till the dog submitted to capture. As I recall they ended up in a trashy side yard full of debris [:'(].

here's my first post


gotta question on that episode where the dog would not budge on the leash. how did ceasar get the dog that wouldn't budge when put on a least to move forward. what was the problem with the way the owner handled the dog such that it would freeze?

thanks

reason i ask - i am going to leash train a new puppy. took him to get his last set of boosters yesterday and put him on a leash for the first time. he froze. so because i had an appointment time to keep, i just picked him up and off to the vet we went.

later in the day, i bought his first collar and he is wearing it. so he's used to the collar almost immediately.

now for the first leash walk.... we have 2 other dogs and his favorite playmate... i am thinking of taking him on his first walk with her so that she can show him how it's done with me just walking forward with calm assertion, i am hoping that he will simply follow.... let's see what happens today.

here he is (4 months old)...

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

here's my first post


gotta question on that episode where the dog would not budge on the leash. how did ceasar get the dog that wouldn't budge when put on a least to move forward. what was the problem with the way the owner handled the dog such that it would freeze?

thanks

reason i ask - i am going to least trin a new puppy. took him to get his last set of boosters yesterday and put him on a leash for the first time. he froze. so because i had an appointment time to keep, i just picked him up and off to the vet we went.

later in the day, i bought his first collar and he is wearing it.

now for the first leash walk.... we have 2 other dogs and his favorite playmate... i am thinking of taking him on his first walk with her so that she can show him how it's done with me just walking forward with calm assertion, i am hoping that he will simply follow.... let's see what happens today.

here he is...

 
Leash training a puppy is totally different than anything CM might do with an adult dog.  I would suggest you get a puppy training book or read some training ideas on the internet.
 
Try this:  [linkhttp://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1538]http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1538[/link]

thanks,

i will keep my progress posted.

per your reference article, i seemed to have already done the first thing correct - buy a collar for the pup.

i bet that he will rapidly come to walk with BOTH myself and his coach dog at his side quite rapidly. i'll post the results later.

have had pups before and leash training went a-ok. never had a pup freeze tho... so i'm gonna offer him to walk side by side with me and my big girl shown below...

if it doesn't work today, i'll probably just hang out in the back yard with the leash attached and get him used to it per your reference....

here she is...

Well dogs dont have a remote control, he cant help the dog from far away , the dog might be afraid because CM didnt step back as other people did in the past but CM showed that he was not there to hurt him but to help him with a calm approach after the dog got tired

 
DH (who is not a dog trainer) once helped a woman whose dog was afraid of men. The dog hadn't been in the same room as a man for years. He was also a large dog and there was some concern that if pressured he might bite. What DH suggested she do was fast the dog for 24 hours then he showed up with a big bag of yummy stuff. He just sat in a chair in the back yard tossing treats closer and closer to him, but saving the big yummy treat until the dog actually took it from his hand. It took a long time but the dog eventually did. After a couple of sessions of this the dog was coming straight up for his meal and didn't need to be fasted first. Later the dog was able to do this with other men and eventually became OK with most men.
 
It seems that this would be less pressure on the dog than running him down.