The Dog Whisperer??

My dogs, indeed almost any sight hound, would shut down with any harsh training methods. Besides, I enjoy my dogs and my relationship with them - trust, respect, love - no reason to ruin it.

 
Sighthounds are absolutely unique in that respect, but the methods used to train them are applicable across the spectrum of breeds.  And sighthounds are "hard" breeds because they are stubborn yet soft, so the methods used need to be consistent yet fair and the dog needs to feel that obeying you is his/her choice in that it makes him the happiest.
 
Another method you might investigate is "Playtraining" which works with any dog that plays, wants to play, has played, will play, or even thinks he/she wants to play.

ORIGINAL: brandy76

I've been watching the marathons of the Dog Whisperer w. Cesar Milan and he seems to be very physical with the dogs when trying to correct problems, like kicking or grabbing the dog.  He says when he does this, it doesn't hurt the dog. And he always gets the dogs to behave.

Touch is a form of communication. Some people can use it correctly, some can't.

If someone does not see the difference between a tap of the foot to redirect the dog's focus and "kicking" a dog, then they probably should not be using touch to communicate with their dog.

ORIGINAL: brandy76

But is this the right way.  I read the book "Culture Clash" (among others) which strongly disagrees with physical correction.  What are your thoughts?

There is no absolute "right" way. It depends upon what you are trying to achieve with a given dog within a given moment and whether or not you are dealing with a social issue, frustrated energy, or a training situation.

Again, touch is a form of communication. I have no problem with physical corrections as long as they are fair, the dog understands what's going on, and they are not taken to the extreme or done in anger or frustration.

Jean Donaldson is an evangelical leader of the Positive Only movement. Her self-rightous extremist preachings should be taken with a large lump of salt. She has no grasp of what Cesar is doing, yet devotes entire web pages to bashing him in ignorance. Very sad and unprofessional behavior, IMO.

ORIGINAL: brandy 76

I do like how he emphasizes being the leader of the pack & it seems a lot of his cases he has to train the human more than the dog!

This is where he really hits the nail on the head. At least 90% of dog instability, aggression, and behavior problems are human caused, IMOAE. 

Addressing the owners emotional and self-rewarding behavior (at the expense of the dog) and getting the owners to see how their behavior impacts their dog, is a great place to start.

If the focus were only on shaping or training the resulting unwanted behavior without addressing the cause (usually the owner's social interaction with the dog), you may only end up shaping instability without ever addressing the real problem...the owner.

Anyway, Cesar's focus is on the social dynamic and seeing that the dog's physical and mental needs are met so that the dog is not confused as to their place within their social group, has good manners and safe behavior in public, and is not frustrated to the point of venting excess energy in destructive or aggressive ways.

For actual dog "training", I would recommend Suzanne Clothier and atricia McConnel, along with a bit of Karen Pryor to understand operant conditioning principles and marker training.

Millan#%92s hands-on work appeals to me for it#%92s sensitivity of touch. I#%92ve also been interested lately in reading what horse people have to say about handling leads, as they#%92re very tuned into “handling”: given the size and weight of a horse, getting it right matters. Some of Millan#%92s physical gestures seemed rough to me, until I tried them. As a yogi/meditator/dancer I feel at home handling my dog, often touching her makes more sense to me than talking to her.

For me, Millan#%92s been a great model of human composure, intention, and presence. I like how he advocates self-mastery. Here's a description of his physical/energy abilities that I enjoy reading:http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_05_22_a_dog.html

I think the problem is that most of us don#%92t have Millan#%92s innate and developed talent. He#%92s a master at what he does, and he shows us what is possible. Dogs don#%92t respond to most of us like they do with him. When he points his finger at a dog, he does it with the expertise of a martial artist who redirects the appropriate amount of energy needed to get result. Millan#%92s an athlete. Trying to hit golf balls like Tiger Woods, or box like Sugar Ray would get lots of us in trouble, too. []

So, I admire his talent, and am inspired to hone my physical craft. But, I also draw from many other handling/relationship models to create the wonderful relationship I have with my dog. I haven#%92t read Culture Clash yet, but I#%92ve learned a lot from reading books and articles by Patricia McConnell, Suzanne Clothier, Millan, Roger Hild, and others. More than reading stuff, however, the time I spend with my dog, and in the presence of experienced handlers, and beautifully functioning dogs, is most valuable.

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ORIGINAL: Angelique
Jean Donaldson is an evangelical leader of the Positive Only movement. Her self-rightous extremist preachings should be taken with a large lump of salt. She has no grasp of what Cesar is doing, yet devotes entire web pages to bashing him in ignorance. Very sad and unprofessional behavior, IMO.

Those are pretty strong words, but I feel unqualified to comment on them since I have not read what Donaldson has to say. Would you be willing to post those links? I#%92d be interested in seeing what her points of argument are, and read for myself the tone in which she delivers them. Thanks in advance! []

I read this article a few monthe ago, which pits Millan against Dunbar. For my money, most of the strife was generated by the reporter!
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL

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Thanks, everyone, for speaking your minds, while remaining respectful of other posters#%92 opinions. []
Being thoughtful about posting helps to make a space that invites a survey of opinions.
It#%92s so much easier for everyone to refrain from taking things personally when statements are delivered respectfully! []

One of the things that draws me to Millan's point of view, is the integrity with which he presents himself. I cannot recall one article or quote by him in which he speaks negatively about his colleagues and peers, regardless of what they've had to say about him. That's attractive!

**Compelling arguments are build upon content, style and integrity. Everything else is just complaining.**

I think Mr. Milan has done much to focus public attention on the need for exercise. He's also been a very positive rebuttal against those trying for breed specific bans.
 
I personally think he's often more physical than is necessary. Even worse,  attempts to try to emulate him can cause serious harm. Unfortunately many of his devotees don't seem to read and comprehend the seek professional advice/don't try this at home message. I saw a worman wearing a "Pack Leader" shirt just literally dragging her 20 pound dog down the street and it made me want to go rescue the poor dog.
 
I also think it's pretty silly that a person should attempt to act like a dog in order to earn a dog's respect and trust. Acting like a human in charge of the resources is IMO far more natural and quite effective. Dogs do know who controls the food, leash etc. I also have no problems with my dogs walking in front of me for the vast majority of a walk. If they aren't pulling they're IMO good enough and don't need to walk behind me, which I view as an incorrect theory of "calm submission".

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: Angelique
Jean Donaldson is an evangelical leader of the Positive Only movement. Her self-rightous extremist preachings should be taken with a large lump of salt. She has no grasp of what Cesar is doing, yet devotes entire web pages to bashing him in ignorance. Very sad and unprofessional behavior, IMO.

Those are pretty strong words, but I feel unqualified to comment on them since I have not read what Donaldson has to say. Would you be willing to post those links? I'd be interested in seeing what her points of argument are, and read for myself the tone in which she delivers them. Thanks in advance! []

I read this article a few monthe ago, which pits Millan against Dunbar. For my money, most of the strife was generated by the reporter!
[linkhttp://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL]http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL[/link]

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Thanks, everyone, for speaking your minds, while remaining respectful of other posters' opinions. []
Being thoughtful about posting helps to make a space that invites a survey of opinions.
It's so much easier for everyone to refrain from taking things personally when statements are delivered respectfully! []

One of the things that draws me to Millan's point of view, is the integrity with which he presents himself. I cannot recall one article or quote by him in which he speaks negatively about his colleagues and peers, regardless of what they've had to say about him. That's attractive!

 
A google search of "Jean Donaldson Cesar Millan" will take you to many discussions and comments. I couldn't find Jean's comments on the Gladwell piece (including many comments regarding her comments [8D]) But, it's out there somewhere...you'll have to read her book and make up your own mind regarding her tone and delivery of information.
 
And yes, I admire the fact that Cesar does not write letters to get other canine professionals taken off the air or ost negative articles about other canine professionals who use a different philosophy than he uses.
 
 
 
 
 

my post stated very clearly that I am not comfortable with alpha rolls and I was not justifying his methods (the collar pops and pointing/hissing at a dog to get it to submit).

 
Yeah for all the "alpha roll" controversy he generates, he really doesn't do it that often.

If he just did it one time is it still ok?  It is like when you see a mother slapping her child at a store...but she just did it one time in public!  Is that ok?  No.
 
I understand that you said that but this part, that I will reiterate is a of psychological value ( to humans who have or want a dog) when we are talking about a character who is representing his super abilities on tv to the entire public, that is curious about how to deal with and "fix" "dangerous dogs" And in fact may cause a person to do those things to his own normal, unsuspecting dog.  Dogs are just dogs.  How we deal with them has everything to do with how they will turn out.
 
When we even say, well, that is not all that bad, (just one time it happened) it is allowing and in many cases giving a green light to behaviors that you in all reality, Hate. 
 
Today, we are desperately needing personalities, abilities on tv, to teach people rational, caring and understandings re. dogs  and get away from this dragon type fear that the general public is deluded about.    It is when your town starts to say, we need legislature preventing certain breeds to be able to breath in your town, or when you get a  "dangerous dog committee" together, consisting of  an insurance agent, a dog hating animal control officer and a few others, some with a clue and the rest that believe in  making Alpha's out of themselves. 
 
Personally, I feel afraid of the diverse sets of ignorances out there.  The need to teach proper behaviors and how to train a poor little dog is what is needed.
 
Milan seems to deal with sychological anomolies and aberrations, and not really doing public a service when he is behaving roughly with an animal, no matter how effective anyone may believe it to be.   Just the fact that he shows that you can deal roughly with a dog and cause the dog to behave and do just what you want is enough to shut him down.   It is not mystifying or amazing. 
 
 Liesje, I understand that you do disagree with his rough behaviors toward dogs.  I only wish we had less tolerance(as a society) for rough handling of living creatures.  It seems a life cycle for some poorly handled critters.  I hate reading about it and having it happen to close to me.
 
We need more solid education about good dog training, Good dog: Good owner committees.  And kind yet firm dog care and teaching. 
 
This is too long, and sorry I even entered the conversation, so just ignore me! 

But, it's out there somewhere...you'll have to read her book and make up your own mind regarding her tone and delivery of information.

 
I suspect that JD isn't a bundle of fun to be around. I'd much rather have a BBQ with CM than JD. But....I've found her books to have a lot of relevant information, including specific steps, that are clearly, if acerbically, written. I'd definately recommend Culture Clash.

Jean Donaldson is an evangelical leader of the Positive Only movement. Her self-rightous extremist preachings should be taken with a large lump of salt. She has no grasp of what Cesar is doing, yet devotes entire web pages to bashing him in ignorance. Very sad and unprofessional behavior, IMO.

This statement reads as propaganda to me. Positive-Only-Movement? Extremist preachings? I find Donaldson neither "extremist" nor only interested in "positive-only" training. **content removed**

Forum Rule #3: Debating and discussion is fine. We encourage it. It's how we all learn. However, respect your fellow members. Different posters are likely to express different opinions, and while they may differ from yours, everyone is entitled to express theirs freely. We will not tolerate rudeness, insults or personal attacks. Do not disrespect, taunt, bother, bug or flame anyone, either on the forum or via private messages or email.

I understand that you said that but this part, that I will reiterate is a of psychological value ( to humans who have or want a dog) when we are talking about a character who is representing his super abilities on tv to the entire public, that is curious about how to deal with and "fix" "dangerous dogs" And in fact may cause a person to do those things to his own normal, unsuspecting dog. Dogs are just dogs. How we deal with them has everything to do with how they will turn out.

When we even say, well, that is not all that bad, (just one time it happened) it is allowing and in many cases giving a green light to behaviors that you in all reality, Hate.

Soooo, I should lie and say he alpha rolls dogs all the time on his TV show?  I guess I'm not really following what you're trying to say or what I said that was either not true or somehow advocates or excuses CM's techniques.  Personally, I don't like any of his techiques, but I've watched two full seasons of his show and can only remember two alpha rolls.  I think the OP is smart enough to decide for him or herself what methods are appropriate without me lying by omission or exaggerating what CM does.  I never said alpha rolling was "not all that bad".  Alpha rolling is BAD, period.  All I'm saying is that the general public knows CM as the trainer who alpha rolls dogs, when most of the time, he doesn't.

Granted, I've never owned any of the hard breeds, so I prefer and only need softer training methods.

As a trainer, I see a lot of so called "hard" breeds, and the great majority of dogs, hard or soft, do well with "softer" training methods.  If you look at dogs that other dogs respect as leaders, you will notice that they are not usually the ones that are full of bluster.  Rather, they are the dogs that can stop another dog in its tracks with a glance, or a turned whisker.  Leaders control resources.  Food, water, sex, space, sleeping areas, everything.  Once people get that through their heads, they can modify a lot of their dogs' behavior without having to be harsh in the least.  It's a simple concept that humans seem to want to complicate.

Personally, if I were accused of being an extremist, I'd rather opt for positive than negative.  And, just because Jean Donaldson's writing style is edgier than CM's, she might be fun at a BBQ, who knows? []
I don't know the woman personally, but I have eaten dinner in a group with Sue Sternberg, and despite some of her controversial views, she's absolutely hilarious as a dinner companion.  Loved it, and hope I get to do it again someday.

I agree...

I must say you (Angelique) have taken the words directly out of my mouth. I agree with every word you said. While reading this forum I was suprised at the lack of knoledge by most of the posters. They were not listening to what Ceasar message was, he is not their to train a dog, instead to restore the natural balance of the dog psychologically. Grrrr- If you don't like his methods than stop watching his show! Take you comments somewhere where you can help someone else instead of bashing a man who has helped so many. So many of you talk about how pphysical he is and that "it is abuse", he doesn't abuse dogs, instead gives a "touch" to redirest the dogs attention. **content removed**

Forum Rule #3: Debating and discussion is fine. We encourage it. It's how we all learn. However, respect your fellow members. Different posters are likely to express different opinions, and while they may differ from yours, everyone is entitled to express theirs freely. We will not tolerate rudeness, insults or personal attacks. Do not disrespect, taunt, bother, bug or flame anyone, either on the forum or via private messages or email.

Here is what I think.... It takes weeks (maybe even months) to train a dog properly. What we see Ceaser and others 'show off' on TV is a quick turnaround of the dog. I am sorry, but this is not possible. It seems like Ceaser is jerking the dog around and being aggressive to get quick results.
 
Why should an owner try and tackle a dog that is aggressive? I don't understand that. Someone is going to get very hurt trying to use some of Ceaser's methods. Of course by tackling the dog it will calm down after a few minutes because it is tired and not because it has been 'trained'.

AGAIN, I reiterate what I said before (**content removed**) He is not training dogs, I know that takes many months and hours upon hours of training! He “rehabilitates” dogs, these are dogs with psychological problems that mostly stem from uninformed owners or abuse. The most exteam cases, not dogs with lack of drive or obbedience issues. He states that what he does is not dog training or obedience, **content removed**? He help the dog restore a natural balance and helps the owner ( all who are not well informed, or underinformed..)

You have your opinion, and a number of us don't agree that CM's methods are the most appropriate for each situation.  That does not necessarily imply that we don't have a clue about dogs, dog training, behavior modification, or the quadrants of operant conditioning.
You really cannot separate training from behavior modification or "rehabilitation" as the masses prefer to call it, because training gives a handler so many more ways to manage a dog's behavior than just his or her body language.  If you think about it, we humans must always seem clumsy in our body language, compared to dogs.  After all, they are "native speakers".  But, they are capable, as we are, of learning a second language.  They may not be valedictorians, but they can get by and be "employed".  The addition of some "vocabulary" means that the dog will, for example, understand the word "off", not as background noise (which is all it is when you say it to an untrained dog), but rather as a request to get off the couch.  The dog that is asked to "off" from the couch any time the human wants to sit down is that much closer to understanding who owns the couch.  Leadership is not about force, it's about controlling resources.  Just like the CEO of a corporation.  Ever notice how a CEO says something and it goes.  Why?  Because your paycheck hangs in the balance. []