Dog Community

Controlling Instinct or Obedience Training?

Posted : 5/8/2007 9:00:56 PM

Here are a couple of short video clips of some owners and their dogs that I recently worked with. This was the first time I met these owners and their dogs and these dogs have never had this kind of training before.

This behavior modification is done with no verbal commands, no food rewards, no clickers. The dogs become calm, cooperative, confident and happy. I think what makes this type of training different from obedience training is that we don't tell the dog what to do, we tell them what not to do. This limits their options, causing them to choose to do what we are asking. And as you know, dogs always respond best when they think it was their idea. How's that for deep?

[linkhttp://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/higgins10000/?action=view¤t=Packwalklab-1.flv]http://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/higgins10000/?action=view¤t=Packwalklab-1.flv[/link]

[linkhttp://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/higgins10000/?action=view¤t=Atthepark.flv]http://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/higgins10000/?action=view¤t=Atthepark.flv[/link]

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

mrv

Posted : 5/9/2007 6:44:44 AM

Sounds like applied behavior analysis to me. [

] The princples are the same, reinforcement occurs after behavior, antecedents are controled so the dog has limited options, behaviors are repeated so a habitual response can occur. Doesnt matter if you use food, access, clickers etc. Nice picture.

spiritdogs

Posted : 5/9/2007 6:57:59 AM

I want to see not only the before and after, I want to see what happened to the dog in between. Who was handling, how did you make the change that was seen on the video?
The owner's correction was subtle, and that shows good leashmanship, but have happier dogs now that they choose correct behavior (because they realize that's what gets reinforced), rather than me always having to correct them. Let's see the whole tape so we can be objective about what you did.

mudpuppy

Posted : 5/9/2007 9:27:05 AM

I have a video of an ecollar training session that would look very similar to these videos if you cut out the "training" portion. **Content Removed - Baiting Behavior**

Brad Higgins

Posted : 5/9/2007 9:49:02 AM

No abuse occured during training. In the video, the owners correction of the lab with a very slight, but well timed tug on the leash is all that is used.

I've included another video here. This is a video of some of my dogs going for a walk. It's the video that my avatar came from. Read these dogs. It's obvious none have been abused.

[linkhttp://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/higgins10000/?action=view¤t=Packwalk2.flv]http://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/higgins10000/?action=view¤t=Packwalk2.flv[/link]

It's interesting to me that some think the only way to get this kind of cooperation from a dog is through abuse.

If some are interested in learning more about this training, I could do a short video. Nothing to hide here. But I won't do a video of my methods just to defend myself.

Lots of ways to train a dog. This works for me.

Brad Higgins

mudpuppy

Posted : 5/9/2007 10:22:41 AM

It's interesting to me that some think the only way to get this kind of cooperation from a dog is through abuse.

no, we don't. Many of us manage to teach beautiful off-leash heeling without any kind of correction at all, not even a tug on the leash. Just trying to point out that your video as presented was highly uninformative....

My experience is that you get a much more relliable off-leash heel much faster if you train it without a leash at all, using a clicker and treats. Leash corrections do work to teach the skill, but it's nowhere near as effective. Last dog I trained with leash corrections took about two years to develop a really reliable off-leash heel (as in, would heel nicely off leash through a crowd of people and dogs), and I believe that is considered a fairly normal time-frame for folks who train that way. Last dog I trained without a leash took oh, a couple of months to reach that same skill level.

Ixas_girl

Posted : 5/9/2007 10:23:30 AM

Hi Brad,

Thanks for sharing your work here on idog.

Would you say more about "we don't tell the dog what to do, we tell them what not to do. This limits their options, causing them to choose to do what we are asking. And as you know, dogs always respond best when they think it was their idea." I'm assuming, from what you've said, that "limiting their options" includes a set of quiet and sublte physical gestures.

I'm sorry to see that your offering was met by such skeptical and defensive remarks. I hope you'll feel welcome in spite of it.

TinaK

Posted : 5/9/2007 10:35:29 AM

What breeds are these dogs you are walking? I have a gun dog too, Engl. Cocker, and he was a pretty easy dog to train to walk off leash. I had the same experience with Springers too. So something I've been wondering about... If you've worked with Huskies or Hounds (a Greyhound, for example), how much harder is it to get to the "After", to walk off leash nicely? Do you feel your approach is a little different with these breeds, or not?

Brad Higgins

Posted : 5/9/2007 10:56:27 AM

Ixas_girl,

Thank you for your thoughtful and polite response. And you're right, I guide them with, as you said subtle physical geatures. So when I show a dog how to walk with me, I'm not asking him to heel, I just gently correct and guide him if he tries to do otherwise.

retty soon, he thinks he figured it out and he is happy and proud, like the dogs in my pack.

TinaK,

The dogs I'm walking are four English Pointers and a German Shorthair.

I've worked with Huskies and hounds too. They don't take any longer. Most dogs respond as quickly as the ones in those two training videos. The time between the before and after is (depending on how long it takes to train the owner

) less than an hour. Usually after three or four walks, we begin dropping the leash during the walk. Soon after, we work off leash.

Brad Higgins

Ixas_girl

Posted : 5/9/2007 11:17:07 AM

I think using video to illustrate that is really useful. It's consistent with the methodology you are adovocating.

So many discussions about how to work with dogs are very clunky, because what actually manifests in the physical world, between two creatures, can never be fully described in words. There are even "how to" training series for certain tasks on Youtube.

It would be interesting to have a training section in which people only posted videos and pictures, and then used a minumum of words to explain them! [

]

spiritdogs

Posted : 5/9/2007 11:26:31 AM

It's interesting to me that some think the only way to get this kind of cooperation from a dog is through abuse.

I don't recall saying that. My comments were intended to inform you that seeing the "before" and "after" did not show me a thing about your method, only the presenting problem and the final result. I want to know what you did in the middle. I don't think it's a stretch, however, to imagine that there are many who use the "quick fix" of coercion. If you use body blocking, or some other form of communication, I'd prefer that you just share it right from the start. Some people here are ok with smoke and mirrors - I'm not. But, if something works, and is dog-friendly, I'm always interested in seeing it.

mudpuppy

Posted : 5/9/2007 12:20:06 PM

yeah, I agree. I still haven't the foggiest idea what you did. Saying you "use subtle gestures" doesn't tell anyone anything informative. Let's see some examples.

Also, that last one with the dogs walking near you-- would be a lot more impressive if there were distractions around. Most peoples dogs will walk near them like that with no training at all in a quiet location. Until the rabbit hops by, or another dog approaches, etc.