Tips on dealing with dog aggressive dog please

ORIGINAL: JaneyB

I still don't think popping the leash is a good way to deal with a dog with aggression issues.  It might work as a correction for a dog who has focus issues, rather than aggression, but like I said before with my aggressive dog, the leash pop resulted in his further aggression. 

I don't want to offend here, and I didn't want to go here because I thought it might, but if your dog bit the trainer, then I have to say your trainer wasn't reading the dog very well and was probably not a very good trainer to start with.  My golden retriever went to bite my trainer when he asked her for some behavior, but before she got that far she was under control.  Both trainers, completely separate firms, that trained my dog Zorro stated that without training he would be a biter.  He already at 7 months showed both of them behaviors that indicated it, like not letting them touch his head or butt, he wouldn't look at them, various things that can be read about an animal.  We owned Jewel who attempted to bite until she died at almost 10 years and never once tried to bite anyone and we used the choke chain, and Zorro who was probably going to bite and never did and he died at almost 14 and had choke chain training to control some of his behaviors. 

I am by no means supporting any form of abuse, but setting boundaries.  If you can get those boundaries set some other way great, but if not this may be the step you need. 

I think this lady's dog is very smart and very sensative based on his response to the trainer.  He knew what was what.  If she asserted herself one or two times with this dog, he would be under control for her the rest of their live together.  He is testing her boundaries and she doesn't know how to enforce them yet or teach them and the trainer got through immediately in a way the dog understood. 

My shelties have not responded well to choke chain training and I didn't use it, but if they did and if they had needed it, I would have been glad to know I had that tool available. 

As far as the dog hiding behind his owner, probable indicates a degree of fear, but probably more likely indicates that he knows mommy won't make him do as the trainer did, just like a naughty child may hide behind mommy because daddy wants to correct him for something.  Is the child really afraid of daddy, hopefully not, but has learned to run to its mom for protection from daddy because it works.

If you want a fearful dog to ignore other dogs, then would you please tell me how making the dog generally *more* fearful will do that?
The dog cowers from the trainer because the trainer caused him pain - he made the correct association.  That is exactly what happened.  The danger is that if you constantly correct a dog when he is in a situation of stress, he begins to associate the corrections with other dogs being present.  Bad idea.  Dog learns "I hate other dogs".  This is not your objective.  You should, instead, pair a good experience with the presence of other dogs.  Classical conditioning - read up on it.

I know that I will not convince the leash popper crowd, but I have been doing this a long time, and used to use those methods - I gave them up when I discovered how much more successful I was at training with operant conditioning and classical conditioning techniques. Check out Peaceable Paws web page for more info on why positive training is a good idea.

Thanks for some reminders there, Anne. I know because of how I've been trained to train dogs I have to fight myself (and I don't always win, either) to NOT do a leash pop for every little thing.
 
One thing I've finally figured out is that I must manage every situation until I can work with the dog more positvely. No walks outside the yard until I know how I can successfully handle another dog, person, situation, etc. Dog in another room if I know that I cannot successfully manage people coming over. No pets on the heads for my dogs if I know that I cannot successfully manage them with people.
 
Training classes are different, of course--you're there for a reason, and everyone is in the same boat.
 
But, after having a hound who honestly couldn't care less about leash corrections, at all, I can't say leash corrections work. They didn't with her and I had to figure out other methods. (I didn't live in a "dog-training" area at the time and all training then was leash-corrective, so I really scoured books and made things up.)
 
Definitely getting their belief and buy in to situations is key.
 
 

Umm have any of you leash pop afficianados tried the other methods suggested here before you go telling people they don't work?!

I've tried traditional training w/ my FOMERLY reactive dog and it made her worse, no doubt about that here at least. +R and reading my dog has turned her around; she was at the dog park today in fact and meeting other dogs quite nicely - she has two new buddies.

Maggie did much the same thing as your setter, heifzilla; she was fine w/ dogs w/in about 4 feet, but if they interacted with her w/in that space she got snappish. A few corrections on a choke, and a few on a prong when the choke/slip collar didn't stop her, resulted in her reacting sooner and at a greater distance, though it didn't cause a fear reaction like your boy showed (abject submission perhaps as well, but I want a confident dog not a puddle of goo in training).

Clicker work on attention at safe distances gave me a great way to call her off of a possible reaction before it happened and I made sure she wasn't put in a situation that was too much for her. If she snapped it was my fault, not hers - I wasn't paying attention to her comfort zone.

Lest any of you think she was ignored for bad behavior, think again! If I messed up, I whistled and turned and walked the other way, breaking her eye contact w/ the other dog and giving her the space she needed. During our most intensive training period time outs were sometimes given for reactions if possible and Maggie was on a strict "Nothing in Life is Free" program (which you might want to check into 'zilla). She had a ton of rules, but it gave her the structure she needed.

The thing that finally got us to 'dog park dog' status was my realizing she was nervous around dogs partly because she was guarding me! Several weeks of visiting the dog park but staying outside of the main play area and my recognizing my nervousness and thus loosening the leash and breathing calmly resulted in a changed dog! Maggie gets along well w/ others now both on and off lead, though we stay away from small dogs given her high prey drive and propensity for steering clear of them when possible.

Teach your boy "watch me" in progressively harder situations (I can now ask for a watch me off of stalking prey w/ my girl!), practice calm 'about turns', and evaluate your reactions and you should be on your way to a more relaxed dog. Also remember - slow is fast here and don't be shy about telling others that your boy "isn't good with other dogs right now" so please keep their dog away while you work with him.

I also found that as Maggie progressed, allowing short greetings (initially 2 seconds, working up to more) before recalling her or asking for a "look"/"watch me" helped decrease her nervousness; it didn't allow her to react to the other dog, but taught her how to greet nicely instead.

One thing I haven't tried that might also help is teaching him to touch a dog's body in certain places when asked - start w/ you other dog and work up w/ other well trained dogs. Since sniffing hindquarters seems to be easy for your new boy, start with that. Sometimes having a 'job' is enough to break the reactivity pattern.

HTH; trust your gut in dog training, if it doesn't feel right don't do it, ask for clarification and question methods yes, but don't do it until you're comfortable with it - your dog will pick up on your uncertainty and it can create more problems over time.

Nice post, stardogs. 
If your dog is too nervous to pay attention to you, then lengthen the distance between you and the thing the dog is nervous about!!!!!
Work, at first, within the dog's comfort zone. 
You wouldn't begin a diving career on the high platform, without learning on the low board first, so why would a dog begin learning under the most stressful and dangerous circumstances?
Overfacing the dog just leads to more fear.
Read "Scaredy Dog - Understanding and Rehabilitating Your Reactive Dog" by Ali Brown (dogwise.com will have it)

My own personal experience started about 5 days ago when I adopted the new girl, Gaia.  She was labeled "dog aggressive" so I was hesitant to introduce her to the dog park crowd.  Our first trip was outside the fence.  She was incredibly interested in the dogs on the other side.  A couple of controlled introductions on the lead...she was still fairly good, however her tail had dropped to between her legs and she was balking at the lead a bit.
 
A few days later I took her inside the park when there were only 4 other dogs.  I felt that keeping her on lead would give her security that I was nearby and in control of the situation.  I was 100% wrong.  She became snarfy whenever dogs would get too close to her and she would balk at the leash more.  So against all my intuition I decided to let her off lead.  She was absolutely wonderful.  Lot's of greetings and sniffs with other dogs, when she'd feel that each encounter was over, she'd trot away.  She even let Frankie, the Irish Terrier, chase her around a bit. 
 
Last night it was her, me and Xerxes in the park.  Everyone was off lead and everyone was having a blast.
 
What I learned from this experience is that sometimes a dog will feel threatened by another dog if the first dog is on lead and feels that it cannot escape. 
 
Had I leash popped her when she gave her warning snarfs, I think she would have responded by skipping air snaps and going straight to the bite. 

Xerxes, you experienced what I have been preaching about for a long time.  It's not about aggression, it's about stress or fear, in most cases.  Had you leash popped her, she might not have bitten (and that's what gets people thinking they have solved the problem), but her fear would have grown (I hate other dogs, or I'm so scared, when I'm on my leash), and sooner or later, it would result in a bite (probably at a time when you least expected it, at a lower threshold - and you might have joined all the other unsuspecting owners who complain - he bit without warning...the other dog didn't even threaten him - nothing scary was happening.  Yeah, right).
While you don't always get a good result doing what you did, it does happen more often than not, and for those dogs with whom you aren't sure, usually no harm in letting them get introduced to a small group with a muzzle and a leash dragging on the ground.

While you don't always get a good result doing what you did, it does happen more often than not, and for those dogs with whom you aren't sure, usually no harm in letting them get introduced to a small group with a muzzle and a leash dragging on the ground.

I know I did jump the gun a bit, but that's because I knew the dogs and their owners and have known them for a long time.  Everyone knew it was a "first time" situation.  I did skip the muzzle/drag line step, which I shouldn't have.  My results were good, I think, because I read body language pretty well.  (I've been known to walk from one end of the park to the other to break things up when I notice something amiss in dogs' body language) 

I posted that for the lurkers, mostly, Xerxes, lest they get the idea to "try it at home" LOL.  I suspect you pretty much had the dogs pegged when you did it.

I know that I will not convince the leash popper crowd, but I have been doing this a long time, and used to use those methods - I gave them up when I discovered how much more successful I was at training with operant conditioning and classical conditioning techniques.

 
Me too.
 
The biggest problem with the "leash pop", or most corrections, is the dog usually has no idea why he's experiencing pain. Most often the dog associates it with the presence of the owner. So you've taught your dog that you are unpleasant. Not exactly the message you're trying to get across. Here, in these situations, the dog is so focused on the object of his fear, that dog over there, that he's literally forgotten his owner exists. Ouch he says, my neck hurts. A few minutes later it happens again. Most reactive dogs "trained" in this way quickly learn "if I see dog= pain". Which makes their fear aggression/reactivity worse. They are NOT learning what you think you are teaching them.
 
The ONLY time a correction is an effective training method is when the dog a) knows exactly what he's been asked to do, and b) deliberately decides to disobey, and c) you are able to correct him with erfect timing and intensity of correction.  Quite a rare situation with dogs. Usually if a dog doesn't obey it means he's confused or distracted. He needs help, not a correction.
 
Note there is a big difference between a training situation and a situation that needs management. If you are trying to re-train your dog to not be reactive to other dogs, and you've worked up to "my dog is ok 100 yards away", and then suddenly you turn a corner and there is a dog and your dog wigs out-- trying your training technique of asking for focus on you clearly won't work, so don't bother. You need to manage the situation by getting your dog out of there.