Tips on dealing with dog aggressive dog please

Leash corrections do not accecerbate aggression - that is just isn't so.

 
I don't agree.  My dog, Gandolf, who is aggressive with dogs and humans got a correction from a trainer who advocated a prong collar and leash corrections.  The trainer got bit!  (And hard!)
 
I do believe a dog needs to know when behavior is not appropriate, but you can do that with a verbal cue such as "eh-eh," or "no," and then by telling the dog what you want him to do. A leash pop correction doesn't adequately explain that concept.  And I've seen one cause a bite, and maybe that's because Gandolf has aggressive propensities already, but I do know I will never use that method with Gandolf again.

ORIGINAL: JaneyB


I do believe a dog needs to know when behavior is not appropriate, but you can do that with a verbal cue such as "eh-eh," or "no," and then by telling the dog what you want him to do. 

 
I'm really curious - what would you do with a dog who is completely ignoring you?  When some dogs fixate on things they just tune everything out and yes, granted, a well trained dog SHOULD listen to its owner, but not every dog is that well trained.  Nothing I say verbally to my dog phases him at ALL when he's going after another dog.  What else can I do but pop him on the collar to get his attention?

Gandolf has never been that reactive with other dogs while on leash, so we don't have too many problems handling him around other dogs (he doesn't go nuts on the leash, barking, lunging, etc.)  But he does go nuts over squirrels occassionally, and if he does he gets an "eh-eh," and then a "watch me." (which we learned in low distraction areas first, and then built up to higher distraction areas).  It's quite effective.  If the squirrel is too close (like right in front of us), Gandolf gets an "eh-eh," and I know a "watch me" won't work, so he gets a "turn" command and we immediately turn 180 degrees, and go in the opposite direction.
 
And yes, that all took training.  Until he got it down, we limited his exposure to squirrels (or you can do with other dogs).  Find out what the crucial comfort zone is with your dog and work within that zone first, then you can do "watch me's" with dogs up close. 

Hm, I have been working on Cairo with "look at me" but haven't been exceedingly diligent about it.  I usually stop periodically throughout our walks and have him sit and tell him to "look at me" and we'll just sit there until he looks at me.  He hates looking at me on walks... I know I'm probably anthropomorphosizing him, but I swear he purposefully won't look at me.  I can call him, squeal, get all happy and excited and he just sits there with his ears down and downright will not respond.  If I kneel down to get on eye level with him, he turns his head the other way [8|]   He's getting a little better now that he's figured out we're definitely not moving until he looks at me.
 
Anyway.  I feel like I hijacked the thread.  Sorry!

Nikki, you totally didn't hijack the thread.  It's all good because I get responses and suggestions.

Tonight was class and you know what?  Skyy was VERY fearful of the trainer.  We were working on something and the trainer came over to demonstrate with Skyy and Skyy tucked his tail and wanted nothing to do with him.  It took a lot of coaxing and petting to get him to the point where the trainer could even touch him.  He was not that way with the trainer before last week's lesson with the slip collar and Skyy certainly had no issues with any of the trainer assistants today, either.

I find that interesting, really.  It shows me that the corrections given last week (given silently) were associated with the person giving them and not necessarily with the aggression towards other dogs.

There were no aggression incidences this week, as I kept him in his comfort zone.  We had one minor thing where a rottie got stiff-legged at him and Skyy didn't like that, but I removed him from the situation before it escalated.

ORIGINAL: Nikki_Burr

Nothing I say verbally to my dog phases him at ALL when he's going after another dog.  What else can I do but pop him on the collar to get his attention?

 
Nothing, IMO.  Pop his collar.  Unlike what SOME eople would have you believe, the earth won't open up and swallow you and your dog if you give him a collar correction. 
 
Training methods involving collar corrections have been used for generations.  Far longer than R+ and clicker training.  Contrary to what SOME people would have you believe, positive training methods are not the only effective method of training a dog.  The opinion that they are, to me, is very closed minded.  I think you need to be receptive to any training method, from clicker training to shock collars.  Different methods for different dogs with different problems.
 
SOME people will tell you to just ignore your dog's bad behavior and reward the good.  These, no doubt, are the same people who don't spank their kids, yet they consider them well behaved.  They go through life blissfully unaware that the rest of the world sees their kids, and their dogs, as spoiled brats.
 
But that's just my opinion.

Willow also gets into a "zone" and her focus is very difficult to break.  And, asking her to "watch me" would just get completely ignored.  I think it's hard for anyone to understand how a dog aggressive or any type of aggressive dog works.  A click and a treat will get ignored for me also. 
 
But, I have managed to find that if I say something she super duper likes like, "wanna go for a ride??" I can break her focus. 

"I'm really curious - what would you do with a dog who is completely ignoring you?  When some dogs fixate on things they just tune everything out and yes, granted, a well trained dog SHOULD listen to its owner, but not every dog is that well trained.  Nothing I say verbally to my dog phases him at ALL when he's going after another dog.  What else can I do but pop him on the collar to get his attention? "
 
Well, I'm not anti-correction at all, but physically correcting an aggressive dog, particularly a leash-aggressive dog,  is just counter-productive-- it will make the problem worse in the long run.  If you read "click to calm" you see she suggests a program of gradual de-sensitization-- you don't get close enough to the other dog that your dog completely wigs out and forgets you exist. You gradually work on closing the distance. Of course accidents do happen-- I think she suggests just sharply turning away and dragging the dog off with you, I can't quite remember. 
 
It doesn't hurt at all to spend a few minutes every single day working on getting the dog to immediately look at you when you call his name.
 
I've often wondered if one of those "pet pagers" they sell to communicate with deaf dogs would be useful for re-focusing a reactive dog on the owner.
 
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The keeping a distance works (with her anyway) as far as she doesn't lung or pull or react BUT she still is focused on the dog, ears up, looking. In fact, my signature picture shows this perfectly.  We could be a huge distance away too, it's not close at all.  If she can see it, this is what she does.  I do just more her further away and in those times when the other dog is too close for some reason I mention something she wants more than to mess with the dog and that for her is the word "go". 

On the other hand, I've also had her just deal with it when I wanted to speak with my neighbor and we ignored her pulling and acting like an idiot for awhile and eventually she got tired and just sat down with the other dog.  So, who knows what's up with her. 

ORIGINAL: Heifzilla

Tonight was class and you know what?  Skyy was VERY fearful of the trainer.  We were working on something and the trainer came over to demonstrate with Skyy and Skyy tucked his tail and wanted nothing to do with him.  It took a lot of coaxing and petting to get him to the point where the trainer could even touch him.  He was not that way with the trainer before last week's lesson with the slip collar and Skyy certainly had no issues with any of the trainer assistants today, either.

I find that interesting, really.  It shows me that the corrections given last week (given silently) were associated with the person giving them and not necessarily with the aggression towards other dogs.

I think you are misreading what your dog is saying about the trainer.  I believe he is saying by tucking his tail that he understands the trainer is higher in rank than he is, tucking the tail is a submissive act. 

While I believe in these tugs on the choke chain used appropriately and done properly, my two shelties were too sensitive to use it and too smart to need it.  There are going to be some dogs that will not respond to this. 

What I would like most for you specifically is to store the technique away in your "tool basket" and if nothing else works with your dog to distract him away from the other dog, then pull it out and use it.  If your dog is as sensitive and smart as you've indicated you will hardly ever need to use it once he knows you have it available to use.

mudpuppy - I certainly agree work on everything else, it will all only make you have a better dog, but when those things don't work and sometimes they won't, you have something that has already been proven to work and use it.
 
What isn't addressed is how does she get her dog to focus with attention on her.  I know how I would do it, but how would everyone else.  Does this dog treat train?  What motivates him? 
 
When we did our training years ago, we were told to work on this for 20 minutes a night and the dog had to keep contact with us almost the whole time.  Obviously you have to work up to that.  This is going to be what gets you the recall on COME and the DOWN when you need it, because the dogs understand they need to constantly be checking in with you, where you are, what you want, etc... and this is what will save your dogs life when necessary, as we were told and I tell everyone else the most important command to have 100% (as close as you can) is the DOWN command, especially if you plan to have your dog off leash at any time.
 

ORIGINAL: DM aka Ginger
I think you are misreading what your dog is saying about the trainer.  I believe he is saying by tucking his tail that he understands the trainer is higher in rank than he is, tucking the tail is a submissive act. 

 
I agree.  Here's the boss.  Time to shape up.

Is hiding behind me and trying to get away from the trainer part of being submissive?  I thought that indicates fear?

I would ask the trainer.  He was there and observed the behavior.

I still don't think popping the leash is a good way to deal with a dog with aggression issues.  It might work as a correction for a dog who has focus issues, rather than aggression, but like I said before with my aggressive dog, the leash pop resulted in his further aggression. 
 
And you gotta start with the "watch me" in the least distracted zone, like your kitchen, or inside where your dog is most comfortable.  Use yummy, delicious treats and then start moving the command to higher distraction areas, but go slowly - your dog will get it, but you can't go too fast.
 
And sounds like your dog was fearful of the trainer - I'd personally look for a different trainer.