WE are the reason our dogs have issues

I had a feeling my post would spark some controversy! [] 
 
I did say at the end of my post that I was worried I made it sound like this method of training/rehabilitating was a cold and callous way of treating our dogs - it is far from that.  If I had to treat my dogs in that manner, there is NO WAY I would consider it!  Cesar Milan treats dogs with love and respect, while still providing clear boundries and leadership for them.  And yes, the dogs he has on his show are extreme examples of problem dogs, but that just means that they are going to take more work than the average dog to reach a stable state of mind.  A couple of you mentioned that you heard Cesar was a spaz, or that he forced his dominance on the dogs so they were fearful, or that he is aggressive with the dogs.  This is not the case at all!!!!!!  If you had actually seen his show or read his book, you would know that one point he hammers over and over is that the person has to have a "CALM, assertive" state of mind at all times with their dogs.  It's about the energy we project to our dogs, and they can sense our energy.  His teachings are to get your dog to have a stable mind, and if we are being a "spaz", or putting fear into the dogs, or being aggressive with them, we aren't projecting calm, assertive energy - so our dogs won't be able to reach that stable mind.  The only time I've seen him use force on a dog is when the dog is so aggressive that its only intention is to kill other dogs - this is what he calls a "red zone" dog.  These dogs are the ones who usually get surrrendered because their owners can no longer handle them.  When I say he used force, he alpha rolled the dog - and that was only after the dog actually tried to attack another dog.  Considering the dogs nature, I don't think that's being overly aggressive.
 
One of you mentioned that he uses the "power of the pack" - I forgot to mention this myself.  In the wild, dogs typically have stable minds (unless of illness, injury, etc...) The reason they are able to have stable minds is because in the pack there is a pack leader who gives them rules, boundries, and limitations.  Cesar Milan is simply teaches how to be an EFFECTIVE pack leader. 
Like I said before, if his teachings were cold, callous, inhumane, etc... there is no way I would consider trying them.  If you haven't seen his show, I urge you to check it out before you make judgements.  I'm not saying Cesar Milan is "godlike", I'm just saying that his teachings make a lot of sense.   

All I did was stop correcting her, and start emphasizing what she did RIGHT.

 
I did try that with Merlin once, but he does not like it when you praise him.  If I get all happy and say "good boy Merlin!" and try to give him a treat, he glares and stalks away.  Just out of curiosity, what did you do when she went after you?  Just ignore her?  I feel like with Merlin that would just reinforce his behavior because as far as I can tell, being ignored is what he wants.

Clearly his owners are people who didn't understand the breed they were buying, didn't socialize him and certainly didn't train him - but I doubt that any trainer, including CM, can make any permanent progress with a dog unless the family is on board with continuing the training once the professional departs.

 
The really weird thing is that they're really very responsible dog owners.  They did do a lot of research when they got Merlin, they went to JRT trials and bought JRT books and they got him from a breeder, not a pet store.  He's a very handsome dog and he looks like he's from decent show stock, but I have to say I question the breeder.  I can't help but wonder if the breeder knew he was selling to a family with no prior experience to owning a dog.  They do everything else right, he gets like 3 walks a day, is fed Innova, and is very healthy, not overweight at all.  He's one of the healthiest dogs I know.  It's just that this is not a family with the right mindset for a JRT.  They don't seem to understand that you need to make it clear to a dog who the leader is.  They're too kind and gentle to do that.  It's the same way they raised their kids, but unfortunately dogs aren't kids.  I would like to try to explain some of this to them but I feel bad because I feel like they'd get offended.  It's just the wrong dog for the wrong family I guess. 

I didn't want to get too involved with this one, but something about this thread is beckoning me...here goes nothing.

he gets like 3 walks a day

If they can't snap his leash on, then how are they walking him?

  It is extremely frustrating for me to go over their house because I see all the mistakes they're making with him.

  The really weird thing is that they're really very responsible dog owners. 

I think you've mis-represented the situation a bit. 

If you're telling me that this JRT isn't motivated by a big ol' juicy piece of roast beef then I'm thinking that there's something wrong with him physically.  I can get my dor and my cat to do back flips for roast beef.

CM might be a quick fix for this pup, but so would a shock collar.  Either way the dog will be obeying out of fear and intimidation.  When the dog performs a good behavior throw a piece of roast beef on the floor or hand it to him.  If  he's being a jerk, walk out of the room, or even better ask for a known behavior...and reward.  JRTs aren't dumb, he'll get it.

This JRT has taken over the household and trained everyone in it to treat him as such.  He feels insecure about his position so he's constantly lashing out at everyone, lest the pack get out of his control.  Try anything but +R on him and you'll get a fight. 

The dog needs reassurance that his owners are in charge and that he should just enjoy the ride.  Negative reinforcement will not give him that reassurance, in fact it sounds like it has backfired so far.  NILIF and even clicker training could benefit this dog and enable him to be the best that he can be.

They don't seem to understand that you need to make it clear to a dog who the leader is. They're too kind and gentle to do that.

This statement makes it clear to me that NILIF and/or clicker training is the way to go.  They can make it clear to the dog, through kindness, that they are the givers of all that is good, to steal a phrase from another member...the benevolent leaders, if you will.

I want to add this:  Anyone that has trained hounds, especially pharaoh hounds will tell you how stubborn and nt most of them are.  If I were to use the "CM" philosophy of training, I would be breaking my dog's spirit.  Yes I'd have a dog that obeyed me, out of fear, but where is the respect for the individuality of my dog?  Dog training is not a "one size fits all" endeavor, though certain aspect can be.  In fact I didn't use clicker training or NILIF on my dog until recently.  I trained him using playtraining methods, which are still positive reinforcement methods.

Find your dog's motivations, use them as a reward and practice a little, play alot and love your dogs.

Nikki_Burr: While I think you are doing a great deed trying to get Merlin back on track, he will NEVER change his behavior unless his immediate 'pack' works and enforces what you are trying to teach. No amount of Cesar training or NILIF will change this dog if his family is not willing to learn how to control the problem.
 
A good owner is not someone that feeds good food, walks and pampers their dog.
My boss has a teeny tiny tan colored Chihuahua. Shes a good girl as far as behavior goes, which is surprising considering she has never had any training.
 
She is fed Innova also (they ship it in) she was taken everywhere, they buy her clothes and a whole lot of other things.

But they also let her sleep outside, she wanders the neighborhood, and a few months ago had an oops litter.
 
My point is if they arent willing to learn the proper training technique there is no way you, or any other person can help with this dogs issue

When the dog performs a good behavior throw a piece of roast beef on the floor or hand it to him. If he's being a jerk, walk out of the room, or even better ask for a known behavior...and reward. JRTs aren't dumb, he'll get it.

 
Xerxes, are you a terrier person? []  If not, you still hit the nail on the noggin.
 
 

well I guess I`ll give my 2 cents worth, which is probably all its worth.
I think I have seen almost all of the dog whipsper show`s, I also think Cesar knows exactly what he`s talking about. He has never been cruel or mean to ANY of the dogs.but we all have our own interpretation of what mean or cruel is.
And if you know dogs, you also know there must always be a pack leader, the lower ranking dogs are always submissive, they show this by rolling over onto their backs, hes not doing anything cruel by making a dog submissive.
SOME of you im sure have had your dogs growl or even try to bite you, guess who the pack leader is there.
So I totally agree with the starter of this post by saying we in some cases ruin our dogs by allowing them to rule in the name of love.
There is nothing wrong Jerking on the leash to get your dogs attention.
I hate to see a dog walking a person, pulling them along, thats just allowing the dog to rule.
Dogs that attack other dogs or people because the owner doesnt have control over his or her dog can be very dangerous. nothing wrong with jerking up on the leash to control him.
And thats all Cesar does is distract them from doing what we as owners have ALLOWED them to do.
So lets not get our panties in a bunch, I for one am a Cesar fan.
 

Lol, yeah I guess I do sound a bit confusing, don't I?  I mean they're responsible dog owners because they're heart's in the right place and they're doing everything they think is right. They are super sensitive to his emotions and his every need. 
 
As for the leash thing, there is only one person who can put it on: my bf's mom.  Merlin is definitely a "mommy's boy".  She's the only one who can put on his leash without him snapping unless he's in a really, really good mood.  Whenever we take him for a walk we have to have her put on his leash beforehand.  But even she's been bit several times and broken the skin, etc.  And yes, I'm sure he would be perfectly happy to eat a nice juicy steak, but then again he is very finicky.  I've seen him turn his nose up at things my dogs would die for. 
 
So how exactly would NILIF be much different from what they already do?  They do give him everything he wants, but they almost always make him sit for it and they do reward him for being good.  They make him sit before he eats, gets treats, goes out the door (well, usually...that's one of the things I've tried to teach them but I don't know if they do it all the time), and everything else like that.  And what should they do when he attacks them?  At the moment they just tell him no and go lie down or put him outside or whatever.  I think they have tried clicker training as I'm pretty sure I've seen a clicker training book lying around their house.  I'm not sure that they stick with things though.  They may have tried it for a while and then just gave up on it.  He pretty much just obeys when he wants to/wants something.  I can't see how NILIF would be horribly different than what they're doing already, except make the rules a little more strict, but if it would work, then I'm all ears.  Do you have any good websites I could read up on?

I can absolutely promise that MY panties are not in a bunch.  However, I have NEVER jerked a leash, nor do I need to.  I get my dogs attention by speaking to them....but then, when I walk with my dogs, I make darned sure that I am far more fascinating than even the running deer or wild turkeys.  My dogs usually walk off lead or a couple of the younger ones still wear a drag line.  They don't get out of our unspoken circumference....they KNOW how far they can be from me and they don't push their limits.
 
Nope, my dogs have not ever growled at me, nor have they ever even THOUGHT about bitting me.  Now, I think my crew is sufficiently large enough to qualify as a pack....I have six german shepherds.  No one rolls anyone else. My alphas rule with merely a look.   A submissive dog WILL roll over and show his belly as a sign or submission, but that doesn't happen here.  We're a pretty benevolent bunch, and much of THEIR behavior comes from my example.
 
It's all about training...and that training has to start early and be consistent.  Then you won't need to jerk on the leash or alpha roll a dog.

Perfectly said Glenda

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

When the dog performs a good behavior throw a piece of roast beef on the floor or hand it to him. If he's being a jerk, walk out of the room, or even better ask for a known behavior...and reward. JRTs aren't dumb, he'll get it.

Xerxes, are you a terrier person? []  If not, you still hit the nail on the noggin.

Thanks spiritdogs, that means alot to me. But I'm not a terrier person.  Actually I'm helping a bunch of people at my dog park, one in particular is a 6 or 7 month old Pittie.  I'm teaching him "Drop" and hope to go from that to "Leave it."  It's hard to do because these guys are so tenacious.  I held on to the frisbee for 10 minutes (not tugging, not playing...just holding on and saying "Drop") meanwhile the pup was incredibly noisy.  Funny thing is...he dropped it!  Immediately after he dropped it, lots of praise and chest pats (and if I had treats I would have given him one.)  After I gave him back the frisbee, I asked for the Drop again...shorter time   All with positive reinforcement and without laying my hands on the dog.  Before I'd throw the toy for him to chase, I required a sit.  He complied.  It was a small victory, but an important one for the dog.  We repeated this a couple of times. 

I love dogs immensely.  And I don't treat them like 4 legged humans.  The dogs know this and I usually have to greet 10 dogs before I can greet any of the owners.  I'm better with the dogs than I am with the humans anyway.

Just so everyone knows, I used to think CM was a great trainer, and my opinion changed as I started working with dogs myself.  I helped a friend with her aggressive BC mix.  He was and still is, a very fearful dog.  He would only go after weaker dogs.  I tried using the "I am alpha you don't need to be" approach with him.  Big mistake, he got even more fearful and was quicker to get aggressive.  I started him on NILIF (this is at a dog park setting, mind you) and now when he comes to say hello he plops right down into a sit without me asking for it.  He, unlike my dog, is motivated by physical affection, so it was easy to do.

So in answer to your question about "how is NILIF different than what they do now"  I would say that they need to find a better motivator for this JRT.  Until they figure it out and begin to follow strict protocol, the dog will be in charge.  Dogs are not as complex as you make it seem.  They have needs...food, shelter and companionship.  And they have drives: pack, prey, defensive.  Something motivates this terrier, find it and use it as the reward.  Performing CM based alpha nce is likely to turn this dog into a very very insecure dog and will heap issues upon the issues he already has.

Just out of curiosity, what did you do when she went after you? Just ignore her?

When I stopped pushing her, she stopped pushing back. She doesn't "come after me" any more. Actually, she never "came after me", outside of seizure related activity. I should add that she's bitten me, incoherently, during a seizure since. It's not wise to move a seizuring dog, but I do it anyways. They don't even know that they're snapping. I have to put her away from the other dogs, on the floor, so she doesn't get hurt.

The fact that YOU tried to reward Merlin, for a day, changes nothing. It would take the whole family, switching to a different way of training, for a period of time, to make a difference. It does take time to gain a dog's trust and respect. It did take a little time, for Emma to turn around, but she's literally a different dog, now. It's incredible, for everyone who knew her before.

SOME of you im sure have had your dogs growl or even try to bite you, guess who the pack leader is there.

The leader of the back never growls or bites the pack members. He doesn't have to. A look gets their attention.

There is nothing wrong Jerking on a leash to get your dogs attention

If you like neck and spinal problems. Ever been rear ended, in a car? Had whiplash? Jerk your dog's leash, give him whiplash. Fun!

Dogs that attack other dogs or people because the owner doesn't have control over his or her dog can be very dangerous. nothing wrong with jerking up on the leash to control him.

Spoken from someone whose dog has never tried to bite. Jerking up on the leash of an aggressing dog is a really good way to make the dog turn around and bite you, or become more aggressive towards the object he's going after.

Cesar fan or not, you know little about dog training.

he gets like 3 walks a day

 
Whether they are able to snap the leash on, or not, this isn't enough exercise for a Jack.  Perhaps they need to get a few rats and a horse barn...

I'm not going to "touch" the CM issue. The guy is a slick TV performer whose knowledge about dog behavior  and training is 30 years out of date, it's really too bad he's misleading so many folks who confuse TV with reality.  Lots of dogs are going to suffer and lots of people are going to get bitten.
 
But I agree, most of the issues our dogs have are caused by their owners. Most dogs don't get anywhere near enough exercise, training, socialization, discipline, attention, or work.