WE are the reason our dogs have issues

Glenmar Im sorry if you thought I was addressing you directly, I wasnt.
As you can read some folks do get  upset when someone  doesnt agree with their thoughts or Ideas.
Im sure you are a very knowledgeable women who loves and trains her dogs.
 

Just wanted to jump in...a "jerk" on a leash can mean different things depending on the user of the leash and also the person reading the post.
 
A leash jerk could be....
a tug
a quick snap
a long drag
a hard and harsh yank
 
I've tried hard to describe varying degrees of correction above to help our mind see what could be happening when referencing a "jerk"
 
My dogs would think me the "Jerk" if I did any of those

Maybe its just my naive mind speaking but I dont think ANY dog should be given a ‘jerk#%92 as a correction. A sensitive dog may actually learn to fear you if you are constantly jerking on their leash, while a stronger, aggressive dog may develop more behavior problems than they already have, leading one day to a bite.
 
Lizzie is oh so sensitive and I will admit I jerked at her leash (not hard mind you) to try and get her to go up the steps and she balked and refused to move and actually trembled. Needless to say I never did it again. I bribed her up the steps with a food treat the first time and the second time she got verbal praise and she getting pretty good at going up and down steps.
 
Now my first pet was a Cockapoo and this boy was a total demon, and no amount of jerking could turn that around (my mom tried it) and let me tell you if you jerked that leash youd have better be prepared to receive a growl, and if you EVER tried to alpha roll him or grab him by the neck you had better let someone know to start the car because you#%92d be on your way to the hospital treating a dog bite.
 
That boy was mean but he was smart. We actually had an A Hole try and poison him once because of his bad rep and can you believe the dog ate his kibble and left the poison? Now my mom didn#%92t know about positive reinforcement back in those days, but im sure that if we had started rewarding for the good and ignoring the bad he could have made a turn around.

Nikki, have you guys tried just ignoring the dog for a couple day (except for basic needs of course)?
 
I used to be a big fan of Mr. Milan's. The key word is "used" in this instance. His methods, honestly, screwed up the relationship between my dog and I for several months... which is a shame because I think her and I could have done a lot more training and bonding by now. During my "Milan Fase" where I insisted on so many things he did, my dogs was mouthy, obnoxious, and close to out of control. She resisted my every atempt to train her, and I believe, resented me every time I tried to force her to do something... then, enter I-dog... and more importantly, its members... most notably, Anne and Glenda (there were others, too though)... I learned a lot from them... I stopped obsessing over being the "alpha" (I was actually acting like a neurotic, dangerous beta anyway) and the undesired behavior slowly subsided. I learned that an hour walk a day was not enough for my large breed pup and started letting her run on a long line. I started using more +R training and ignoring some of her 'misgivings.' In March, based on the several recommendations Anne had given to other posters, I bought 3 books... Culture Clash, How to be the Leader of the Pack and have Your Dog Love you for it, and The Cautious Canine (which I haven't read yet). The second one, written by Patricia McConnell, taught me more about being a "pack leader" in the 20 minutes it took me to read in, than the 10+ hours I'd spent watching Cesar Milan. Culture Clash took me a bit longer, but helped me to understand my dog better. I think understanding is the key to all successful human-dog relationships. Mr. Milan doesn't teach understanding, but, rather, his teachings focus on force. Keep in mind that physics often applies to relationships... every action has an equal and opposite reaction...
 
Anyway, I'm not completely and utterly +R... although I am trying hard to get there (it's so hard to "drop" the old teachings), but I have a much more well behaved dog... she doesn't jump anymore when I come home (in fact, she used to tackle me), she leaves "off limits" things alone... why? Because I praise her and give her attention when she is playing with her things. I can sit on the computer for hours on end (even if she doesn't get a morning walk) and she'll sleep quietly or play with her toys. She does occasionally start acting up... but, what does that mean? She needs some excersize, so off we go for a stroll in the woods or a nice swim. I take her hiking and she carries 32oz of water in her backpack. I allow her to get on and off the couch as she pleases... so long as she gets off when I tell her to (which she usually does)... heck, she usually gets down when I sit on the couch anyway.
 
Anyway... all this came about with a change in attitude.. my attitude.

I completely agree with Jennie_c_d - jerking on a leash worn by an aggressive dog will get you bitten...
 
I saw it with my own eyes: my "supposed" expert trainer who used force techniques (in this instance a prong collar) with my aggressive pooch, got a nice big fat ol' bite when he jerked up on the leash and "corrected" my dog.  AND then I got a dog who is more comfortable biting someone because he got to make contact, even though the trainer insisted that because the trainer didn't turn around and flee after the bite, that my dog wouldn't bite anymore.  NOT the case. 
 
IMO, treating an aggressive dog with aggression will only escalate the aggression.  Not wise.

I have seen Ceasar's shows, and have read part of his book. The guy knows what he is doing. He's the one who rehabilitates those dogs that people get rid of, or the ones on death row for being cast out as the agressive/dangerous ones. I totally admire the guy, and i believe in his saying that "most of the time, i have to train the owner, not the dog". There was this show once, with a little chihuahua. The dog was soooooo possessive of the lady. And the thing is, she had bought this dog for her adolescent son. Of course, the kid could never get close to the dog, or his own mother. She's sit on the couch, her son would sit next to her, not even touch her, and the dog would bark at him, and try to bite him. She'd just laugh it off. Now, you're telling me this is normal? Ceasar went in, and tested the dog, He sat next to the lady, while the dog was on her, and put his hand on her arm. The dog was going insane, barking and all. All Ceasar did was tap him slightly on the nose, and say no. When the dog wouldn't listen, he took him off of the lady, and put him on the floor. The dog was sad and crying, and the lady was like "oooh, my poor baby" With that, Ceasar told her he could not help her solve her dog problem, because she felt bad for the dog, and babied him too much. The lady came back to her senses, and  let Ceasar work with the dog. Believe it or not, the show ended and the dog was in the young boy's arms, being petted by outsiders...Now , you're telling me this isnt good work?? At no point in time was Ceasar harsh or violent towards this dog. He only thought the lady , that a dog is a dog, that her son should have the privilege of sitting on the couch, not the dog. Of course, some dogs are allowed on the couch, and they are not the least bit like this dog. Then good for you guys who have those dogs. But my dog was becoming a bit aggressive,and would do things she never used to do;growl at us while she was eating or nibbling on a bone, pee in the house, even though the back door was opened, pee on our bed, munch on the wall!! So we decided, that's it!! She is a dog, we will treat her as a dog. No more couches, no more beds. She doesn't growl at us anymore, and she listens more. So i guess Ceasar's way isnt so bad after all is it?

Totally agree with you Elizabeth. Ceasar does know what he is doing.

There would be no need for CM's methods if folks would just do the right thing and TRAIN their pups from the get go, AND go to classes taught by a professional.
 
My pups don't get furniture priveldges until they have earned them...and to earn them they must do what I ask, every single time.  And then they may come up on the couch or the bed WHEN I INVITE THEM, but they also must get down immediately if I say OFF.
 
I work with every litter of pups that I foster as if I'm going to keep them for my own...and it seems that I usually do end up fattening the load when I foster.....but I start with basic manners very early regardless of the source of the pup.  And despite all my experience, I still take every pup that I keep to a professional trainers class.
 
If more people would do that and really start young and not excuse "cute" puppy behavior which becomes not so cute when they get bigger, then there would be absolutely no reason for folks like CM and their fat paychecks.

Well I don't believe they're arguing about whether or not his methods work, there's no doubt they do, but they're arguing that you can get the same, maybe even better results with a more dog-friendly method that doesn't require bullying, intimidating, or frightening the dog.  I'm getting the notion that Cesar's method is an easy quick fix which isn't the best for the dog or the dog's relationship with its owner, but actually working positively with the dog helps enforce the relationship rather than make the dog afraid of you.  Iono, I think they have a valid argument. 
 
Edit to add: Glenda, I agree.  Unfortunately most people are going to make mistakes when they get their first dog, though proper research will certainly help to lessen the number of mistakes.  I myself made the mistake of not socializing my dogs enough and I'm paying for it now with a dog that is difficult to walk around other dogs, though I'll admit he's getting much, much better lately with lots of work.  The people I really worry about are the ones who go out and impulse buy puppies from pet stores...I know someone who did that TWICE within a month of each other.  They are lucky as heck they didn't end up dealing with severe health issues (yet) or bad temperaments.

So i guess Ceasar's way isnt so bad after all is it?

 
No, not at all.  That is if you don't want to listen to any other methods.  I think the dominance methods add unnecessary stress to the dog/human relationship.  There are other methods that eliminate most of the stress and they are fun for both you and your dog.  The problem most people have with these methods is that they don't work overnight and they require patience and consistency, oh yeah...and they're so wrapped up in a 15 minute edited segment that they think every other philosophy is bunk.

dogs need training, not domination. If your dog doesn't obey you or mis-behaves in general, he needs training. You can alpha-roll him twenty times a day and scream no at him for hours on end, and have him cringe and submit to you every time he sees you and he still won't understand what you mean when you call him to come or ask him to sit. Communicate and motivate will get you a lot further than collar corrections and no's.
 
We tried methods similar to what CM preaches on a huge aggressive rehab dog and guess what, the dog got more and more aggressive and the SO ended up in the emergency room. Switched to a non-confrontational NILIF program, and the dog rapidly came around. Most aggression in dogs is actually due to fear. You go around correcting and dominating your dog, and the odds are the dog will react violently. The other possible reaction is the dog will "shut down" and stop doing much of anything due to trauma and fear. Correction-trained dogs tend to be quite "shut down" and generally don't do anything unless directly ordered to do so, out of fear of being punished.

I have read Cesar's Way, and it seems as though others have not. That is all I'm going to say.