WE are the reason our dogs have issues

...let the games begin [8|]
 
Ive never seen the shows but from what ive heard on I-Dog Ceasar is a total spaz and there are alot of people who preach on his teachings. You do not have to alpha roll, grab by the neck, hold the muzzle shut etc. to get good results with your dogs. You CAN have a partnership with your pet and he can respect you at the same time.
 
We dont have to use force, they are smart enough to know who is alpha without needing to be rolled or something along those lines.
 
I have NEVER been harsh with Lizzie and she is awsome. She learned potty training the reliable way, and her basic obedience was learned in a NICE way. She had a problem a while back with getting her herding instincts under control and I did not have to grab her by the neck or alpha roll her ONCE to get her to stop.
 
I think his teachings are a bit out of line and are not for everyone

Oh boy, here we go again.
 
My dogs certainly have privledges, such as being allowed on furniture, but only once they have earned those rights.  I do not treat my six german shepherds like anything other than german shepherds,   Yes, I homecook for them, not because I think that they are too good for kibble, they get that for breakfast, but because I believe it is better for them to have some fresh foods.  They are certainly a part of my family, my fur kids, and a couple are major babies but I'm very clear in my mind that they are NOT human.  And I think Cesar Milan is really not the best example of a GOOD trainer.  I didn't need a book to develop a healthy relationship and a leadership role with my dogs.

There isn't anything I wouldn't do for them - they get homemade cooked meals, go to a doggy babysitter while I am at work, my social life is planned around them, etc....  I'm sure many of you are right there with me!  I sometimes think my dogs have better lives than a lot of my friends' children!  You would think I would have the happiest dogs in the world, but noooooooooo, I still have dogs with issues!

 
I feed my dogs homeprepared meals (not cooked, though, 'cause I feed raw). They go to dog daycare on occasion, and we look for vacations that allow us to hang out with our dogs.  And I do have happy dogs without issues. And I did it all without having to reduce every little problem with my dogs to a "dominance" or "alpha" issue.
 
Homeprepared meals vs kibble: That's not treating my dog like a human, but treating my dog like a dog. All living creatures are designed to eat fresh foods, not food that has been processed to death.
 
Dog Daycare: Again, treating my dog like a dog.  Dogs are social creatures. A dog that spends all day alone and napping in the house is likely to get bored and destructive.  A dog that spends all day playing with his buddies, running around and stretching his legs, and interacting with caring staff is going to be well-exercised and mentally stimulated.  So on days when I know I will be gone all day, and the dogs will be alone for most of that time, they go to day care.
 
Social activities: I got a dog because I wanted to spend time with a dog.  So given the choice between going to the lake and staying at a dog-friendly house and going on a cruise, I'm going to stay at the dog-friendly house.  That's my choice, and it isn't planning my social life around my dogs anymore than choosing to go dirt bike riding vs touring Europe is planning my social life around my dirt bike.  If I choose to go somewhere that isn't dog-friendly, my dogs go to a 5-star boarding kennel where they get to be dogs - run around, hunt gophers, play with each other, eat homeprepared meals, interact with caring staff, etc.  My social activities also include things like agility, dog obedience, hanging out with dog loving friends at the beach.  This isn't treating my dog as the center of my universe; this is choosing to share my life with a dog the way I choose to share my life with my husband. I treat one as a dog and one as a man.  And they both have their heads on straight. []
 
I don't insist that my dogs walk behind me, go through the door after me, eat their meals when I am done with mine, etc.  And yet amazingly they still have their heads on right.   Huh, who'd a thunk it?  I taught them the boundaries (or, am teaching my new dog boundaries).  They can walk ahead of me or behind me as much as they like, but when I say "come" they better come to me. They don't get to rush the door, but they can go ahead of me if I say it's okay.  I feed them whenever I feel like feeding them, whether that's before, after, or at the same time as me. 

From the short imte I've been on here I can tell you many will hammer you over this post.  You'll hear (already have) that he is aggressive and out of line.  I have seen many of his shows and have never seen him aggressive with a dog.  One show he took on the most out of control, aggressive dog I have ever witnessed.  They went back to visit and the dog was doing fine and was no longer on the soon to be euthanized list.
I for one think Cesar is on the right track when he reminds us we need to treat dogs as dogs.  I agree that it is our job to provide balance in their lives or they are more likely to have issues.  Some dogs can be treated like a human and not have issues (or at least ones that get in the way of others) but I htink most need the basic structure that he proposes.
I love my puppy and have strong tendencies to 'baby' him as he is my first dog since I was a kid.  I can feel myself humanize him and fortunately I know its wrong and not good for him.
Often reading the posts here I wonder how my dog as a kid survived for nearly 17 years.  She got plenty of exercise as there were 4 of us kids, but no special food, didn't go to the bank, etc. She got a can of food each night (she was about 50lbs) , whatever it was, milkbone flavored biscuits and whatever we gave her.  She had no health problems except through aging.  Bottom line is that she was treated like a dog - an addition to the family and in some ways an aside.
My buddy, and many people's, can easily become the focal point of a family/pack and that is what to me Cesar is saying is screwing dogs up.

It reminds me of the people that ask me if I've tried not using the prong collar when I take him to places.  He's over 90lbs of muscle (11 mos old)  and wants to lick all people and play with all dogs.  The prong collar is the only way to control him in these situations.  I about handed him to someone that was insistent it wasn't necessary.  He'll drag you along if you put a harness on him and probably chafe & cut himself too.  90% of the time he's fantastic on a leash - but man you better have something for the other 10%

Sorry about the tangent it just strikes me as similar

Oh boy, here we go again.

that is possibly enough said, but I doubt it.

we dont need to treat our dogs like slaves or worthless animals to have a good relationship with them. If you feel you need to treat a dog like this, you really shouldnt own one.
 
Sure there are dogs that have agression issues and special care is needed with them (NILIF program specifally) WillowChow has been VERY sucessful in dealing with her chows agression problems and ask her if she ever had to alpha roll her dog into submission. (Sorry to use Willow as an example but she has come so far!)
 
I find it going a bit too far when you see these people on TV that have weddings for their dogs, have special rooms for them with toddler beds and decorated with doggy stuff. Come on, Lizzie sleeps in her own room, but I wouldnt spuce it up with doggy decorations.
 
But I dont treat her like she should fear me and obey me or else. She goes out the door first and thats ok, as long as she can come back when called she eats breakfast before I do, simply because its more convenient. But you dont see her trying to take over the house hold, she knows whos boss!

I think some people get a little confused with Cesar Milan.  He isn't a bad person, at least not in my opinion, nor is he harsh with dogs.  Cesar rehabilitates these dogs...that means they've already crossed a line and need to be put back in place.  I've watched plenty of his shows and while, no, I don't think he's a god worthy of worship, I have a lot of respect for the guy.  I saw last night's episode where he took on an extremely dog aggressive pit bull.  That dog was completely out of control...if he hadn't belly rolled that dog he wouldn't have gotten anywhere.  It was trying to kill other dogs.  If some guy can take a dog aggressive pit and turn it around so that it can live happily in a family without causing problems...I'm not going to complain about him.  If he could do that for every poor pit on death row for being dog aggressive...  The majority of the cases he deals with are dogs that are severely confused as to who is supposed to run the household or have obsessive problems.  I've seen the episode with the GSD obsessed with chasing its tail.  Sure he reminded the owners to make sure they were in charge, but the thing he emphasized the most was giving him a job.  He gave them a doggy backpack for him to carry water bottles in so he felt like he had a purpose, and it helped him.  I've seen the episode with the Newfie that wouldn't eat.  He didn't shove dominance rituals into that dog's face, he brought it to his dog pack and gave it exercise and made it work for food until it was hungry. 
 
The point is that Cesar's not working with dogs like most of your dogs.  The majority of your dogs are all pretty much well behaved and know who's running the house.  Of course you don't need to belly roll them!  They don't need it, they know already! 
 
Now my boyfriend's family has a Parson Russell Terrier named Merlin.  That dog is the devil.  He is the kind of dog who desperately needs Cesar Milan's help.  He is extremely people aggressive, extremely dog aggressive, and incredibly insecure.  He has just about every psychological problem under the sun.  He is worse than every dog I've seen on The Dog Whisperer (I'm dead serious, that's no exaggeration).  It is extremely frustrating for me to go over their house because I see all the mistakes they're making with him.  They let him rule the roost because they think he's more human than he is.  They give him human reasoning, they think he'll hold grudges for the tiniest things.  He's learned that if he growls, people will stop whatever they were doing, and he takes full advantage of it.  He does not like to be touched, you can't pet him, you can't hold him, you can't put a leash on him, heck, you can't even look at him wrong.  If HE is in a rare friendly mood, he'll come up to you and get all happy and jump up on you and whine.  The rule in the house is you can pet him when he's like that as long as he's looking at you.  If he turns around and you pet him, he'll bite you.  Sometimes he bites you anyway.  If we're all standing in the kitchen and Merlin strolls in, we need to freeze and evacuate because it's too crowded.  If someone moves untintentionally closer to him, he'll growl and snap.  Don't even think about the food guarding.  If you walk by his chair when he's sleeping, he'll growl.  His favorite thing in the world is running off leash on a vacant beach, chasing sand that we throw for him.  One time my bf and I were doing this with him to get him some exercise and because it's so fun to watch him...we were doing this for about half an hour, he was in pure bliss.  When it was time to head back to the house...that's when things got difficult.  He doesn't come when he's called, so the only way to get him to stay still long enough is to get him to start digging in the sand.  Luckily if you take his little shovel and start digging he'll run up and dig as well, and that's usually when you snap the leash on.  Well, despite how extremely happy and tired he was from all the playing, the moment Dave tried to snap the leash on, he snapped at him.  I yelled at him and Dave tried again.  This time Merlin threw himself up in the air after Dave's retreating hand.  That is the kind of dog that needs Cesar Milan.
 
One time in desperation after Merlin attacked someone outside the family, Dave sent dog trainer Uncle Matty an email asking what to do.  A few days later he called and left a message on their answering machine saying pretty much to either pay a gazillion $ to have Uncle Matty fly over to train him or put him to sleep.  [8|] 

That is the kind of dog that needs Cesar Milan.

No, that is the type of dog that needs a strict regime of NILIF and a drag line.

The problem with this dog is he doesn't WANT anything we can give him, so there's no way he's gonna work for any of it.  They do make him sit for everything, like his meals and stuff like that, but the dog is insane.  He hates being petted, he hates going on walks, he hates everything a normal dog would enjoy.  Because his owners don't like to see him in any discomfort, they immediately stop everything when he shows signs of distress.  Therefore, on a walk, when he stops and doesn't want to go any further, they're not going to make him, they'll take him right home.  If he doesn't want to be petted, he's not going to be petted.  Now if he was in my household...I would have a pretty difficult time keeping my temper with him.  I have very low tolerance for aggressive/dominant behavior in dogs.  In my opinion a dog should not bite it's owner.  Or even growl.  I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be able to tolerate a dog that won't allow you to reach out for it just because it doesn't want you to.  If I'm going to grab my dog's collar to keep it from running off, I'm going to grab it whether the dog wants me to or not.  Honestly what I think Merlin needs is to be taught that biting will not work.  Someone needs to take some real thick gloves and just pet him and pet him and pet him whether he bites or not.  He doesn't need to be flipped, he just needs to be handled like a normal dog.  Someone needs to just take him and snap a leash on him and not pay attention to his snapping.  And I've seen Cesar do that with dogs, and it works.  Little yappy dogs that attack things...he just puts his hands on them and lets them bite.  That way they learn that biting is going to get them no where.  When they stop biting, then they get the reward.  Simple as that.  That's not terrifying the dog, it's not beating it to the ground, it's just showing it that biting will not work.

The point is that Cesar's not working with dogs like most of your dogs. The majority of your dogs are all pretty much well behaved and know who's running the house. Of course you don't need to belly roll them! They don't need it, they know already!

Emma was horrible. Horrible. She was handler aggressive, as a PUPPY. She bit me, to the point that I should have gone to the hospital, on more than one occasion. She was so food aggressive, that nobody could walk through the room where her bowl lived without being bitten. She bit and scratched me, the vet, and two techs bloody before we could get a muzzle on her. She fought and struggled and hated the most basic of obedience commands. All of this, before she hit six months old. She was one of those rare, horrible puppies, that occasionally happen.

It got worse. And worse. And worse. I learned about food aggression, and we made big progress. I threw away the bowl. I started hand feeding, practicing NILIF. Her aggressive behaviors continued to rise. She fought tooth and nail, with traditional training methods. I used a nylon slip collar on her, as I'd been taught to do, and issued corrections for misbehavior. And she bit me.

When she was ten months old, it had gone too far. This dog was so aggressive, I couldn't touch her. My mom's dog walked past, and was bitten to the point of bleeding. He was terrified of her. Nobody could handle her. I couldn't safely feed her or take her out to potty. I called in  to work, and called the vet, and made her final appointment, for that afternoon. She was to be euthanized, but she was to have a full blood panel, first. I wanted to make good and sure that I was killing a healthy dog.

Her liver enzymes were through the roof. She was in Hepatic Encephalopathy, and she was seizuring constantly. Between the HE and the post ictal state, she had no idea what she was doing. By now, this aggression was a learned behavior. Diet and medication helped, but Emma would still offer to bite, and she bit me a few more times. She was still quite difficult to handle, and fought, fought, fought obedience.

When Emma was 18 months old, I picked up a clicker. I wanted to enroll in Petsmart's Click A Trick class. Bonding, and all. I didn't think it'd help anything, except maybe we'd learn a silly trick or two, and have some fun together.

At the same time, my best friend left the country. She was gone for three months.

When my friend got back, Emma was a completely compliant, calm, happy dog. She LOOKED different. Her whole mindset was different. Stacy asked me what drug she was on. All I did was stop correcting her, and start emphasizing what she did RIGHT.

Emma hasn't bitten me in over a year. She's learned to growl, again. She walks politely on a leash, in public, and the vet is amazed at the difference in her behavior. Just a couple of months ago, she had to go through a barium series (due to a possible blockage) and laid still for five x rays. She never growled or even offered to struggle.

She still hates her accupuncturist, but we're working on that. She associates Dr Janeen with a very painful time, and a painful exam. She's getting better about that.

There is NO NEED to get physical with a dog. They cannot do what is asked of them if they don't understand what it is that we want. Constant corrections don't teach them what we want. Correction only teaches them that we are unhappy with them.

Hi. I'm not familiar with Cesar Milan and I don't know how he recommends and uses his knowledge.
 
I do believe in dog psychology and pack status. I go one step further though and define the type of dog as a Type 1, Type 2 or Type 3 dog.  Depending on your dog type will depend on the training required for them - for example, Type 3 is a shy timid dog (may have been mistreated).
 
When questioning pack status and the use of it within your training, the question to ask yourself... does your dog do what you want every time? If they don't then it is likely a sign that the pack structure is confused by them. Some dogs may only take a small reminder to respond to you, others though will only respond in their own time. Does this sound familiar? For example, they only come on the 5th time you call OR they keep licking people or jumping up even though you have said no.  If this is your dog, then I'd suggest a reminder of pack structure is required. 
 
In putting the pack structure in place, it can be as simple as eating in front of them before you feed them (the pack leader always eats before their pack) or when your dog is in the drop command walking/standing over the top of them.  There are many more little tips to help get the pack status in order.
 
If the training tips that you have put into place have worked, then well done.  My only word of caution, going on what others have said, never over use force. You are better off to start softer as you can always get firmer. Always respond to your dog... see what your dog needs and how they respond.
 
Good luck

Type 3 is a shy timid dog (may have been mistreated).

 
Actually, it is more likely that a dog is born shy - it's a dominant characteristic in canids, designed to help them *not* just walk up to dangerous beings (like us, LOL).  While some dogs certainly have been abused, the largest percentage of shy dogs are simply unsocialized to the stimulus that is causing their fear.  That's the mechanism by which they learn "this is my pack" and "you are a stranger and most unwelcome".  Just wanted to clarify that for owners who might now think their dogs have been abused just because they exhibit shyness.
 
Also, there is some disagreement over whether the animal that places its body part over another is actually a leader or a "wannabe" leader.  Often, it is this dog that actually is the "beta", to borrow a term from those who believe in dominance theory.  Leaders often shrug off such "bluster" as if to say "Idiot, are you kidding?".   They are the likeliest to share a toy sometimes, too.  The difference is that the leader can get the toy back at any time, often just with a glance - and the subordinate dog often just drops it and leaves.  If you watch many play groups, you will see this phenomenon repeated over and over.
 
I prefer to call "pack status" a "leadership" issue.  Keep in mind that no one has to "dominate" in the sense of being nasty.  Cesar Milan has "hung" dogs, and reportedly faces a lawsuit from one disgruntled owner.  His TV persona may have changed recently (see the other thread on this) but who knows what he may still be doing to dogs?
He seems to think that status is the *only* issue.  Frankly, while it is true that quite a few dogs will try to step in to the vacuum of leadership that their humans abdicate, that's a little simplistic.
At any rate, no one has to physically punish a dog to convince it that the human is in charge.  I've owned everything from Dobermans to Yorkies, and none of my dogs has ever had a hand laid on them in anger or been stepped over, except while performing the "weave through my legs" and they have no problem learning their skills or performing them.
 
If you think about it, marine mammal trainers cannot jump into the pool and physically force a killer whale to jump through a hoop, or a dolphin to walk on its tail.  So, IMO, we should emulate their considerable skill and transfer it to dogs! 
 
Sure, Cesar's brand of training works - intimidation works.  And, this is why many humans love it so much - it's fast.  He may start off appearing "positive", but if he then has to resort to violence to make the point, his skill as a trainer is in serious doubt as far as I'm concerned. 

In my opinion a dog should not bite it's owner. Or even growl. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be able to tolerate a dog that won't allow you to reach out for it just because it doesn't want you to. If I'm going to grab my dog's collar to keep it from running off, I'm going to grab it whether the dog wants me to or not.

 
Growling is a warning that the dog needs to be able to use - destroying his ability to growl makes it almost certain that his next option is to shut up and bite.  As to your statement about reaching and grabbing, ir you teach your dog a proper recall, there should be no need to ever do this.  Frankly, it's akin to someone wanting you to go somewhere with them, and instead of asking you "Come and have coffee", they just grab your ponytail and make you come to Starbucks. 
Merlin is certainly out of control, but all dogs want something, and it may be that the something, in this case, is not food or a toy.  But, when you find out what it is, the skilled trainer will find a way to use that as a reward.  Also, he is the CEO of that household, and there are some leadership techniques that can help reverse that.  Clearly his owners are people who didn't understand the breed they were buying, didn't socialize him and certainly didn't train him - but I doubt that any trainer, including CM, can make any permanent progress with a dog unless the family is on board with continuing the training once the professional departs.

Ah, Anne, you put the rest of us to shame with your coherent and well thought out post.  That says it all.