Questions about NILIF

Well, I'm not a trainer but I use NILIF with Willow daily and did in the beginning when she was quite aggressive.  I don't know if you know her story at all, but I almost gave her up twice because of aggression issues.

Anyway, where did you here that he had to sit AND down??  I've never heard of that being necessary.  As long as he's doing something it should be fine.

HOWEVER, if sit is extremely easy for him, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have him do something else too or instead. 

For me, if she's being particularly bratty or I've got something super good, a sit just isn't enough "work" for that.  I make her do something else, may be down, might be play dead or whatever.  But, for the most part we just use sit, mainly because she will sit for DH also.  You don't want to give commands that you can't enforce.  But, if I had a breed that was extremely athletic, I'd probably be doing down, stay, sit, more complicated things on a regular basis, but I've got a chow and they aren't exactly that way. 

If he's not listening to sit and down, I'd just do sit for now.  To me, his reaction seems like he's confused, or he thinks it's a game.  Have him sit, tell him ONCE (if he's not listening, do not repeat, use two fingers to gently push him bottom into the sit) and let him eat.  Do you have a release command??  Willow will sit, "wait", "wait, good", "OK", and she'll eat. 

Sorry, if this is all over the place, I'm trying to respond, eat and play with her. 

No, you really explained alot!  I never thought of it as him thinking it's a game.  That's a good point.  He has been getting better at down stay at feeding times though.  I also didn't know that they could do tricks instead of something boring like down. I read on a NILIF sight that down is more of a submissive position and that's why I was making him lay down.

Wow, maybe I'm taking things way to seriously.

By the way, the reason why we are doing NILIF is because he's a terrier.  He's growled at me 2 times in the last 6 months and has never done it before.

We enrolled him in obedience training, but I don't think it worked, other than he learned a few more tricks, like leave it.

Oh, and our release command is also "okay."

True, down is very submissive.  (One reason Willow hates doing it)
 
Yes, the point is they are working for what they want, so any command will do, as long as they are doing it, no repeating, that's why I like sit, easy to push the bottom down without a big production.  Or paw, you can just take the paw up.  Down's a little harder to enforce. 

I think you're doing the right thing really, growls are not good.  And, I firmly believe in this program. 

But, I would have him do whatever he's best at doing right now.  That way, you're not having to repeat or he's not thinking it's a game or something. 
 
I just recently read something about training and the "alpha" status being two different things.  The training helps you show him the "alpha" status by making him work for things.  See, if he wasn't trained, you couldn't do this NILIF program.  Hopefully that makes sense, I'll try to find where I read about it.  It separates the two, training and pack hierarchy. 

Funny story---There were a few times Willow really, REALLY, wanted something I had and she started doing everything she knew.  After she finished her whole bunch of tricks and commands she know's, I STILL made her do one more that she hadn't done. 
Anyway, you are doing great. 

You haven't explained what KINDS of things you're doing with your NILIF.
 
Are you:
 
1. Always the first one out and/or in the door?
2. Do you make him walk next to you or let him walk in front of you on walks?
3. When you feed him, do you only make him "work" for it first, or do you also eat a little something before he gets to eat (like a cracker)?
4. Do you make him work for everything he does, or only food?
5.  When he's in your way, do you step over him, or do you make him move out of the way?
 
1a. The first one in/out of the door is important.  It shows who's boss.  In the wild, the Alpha of the pack is always in the lead.  HE gets to check out the woods first, everybody else gets to look at his furry butt.
 
2a.  I am not a total believer in this, but am told by many it can help.  When you are in the lead, supposedly it shows you are the leader, but quite frankly, when I take Strauss for a walk, sometimes he's by my side, other times I tell him to "Go explore" and allow him ahead of me.  Walking is a matter of control, and, I believe that while a dog should start out in a lazy heel position (as opposed to the rigid formal position), he should be allowed to explore his surroundings.  We're not training, we're out having a leisurely walk.  As long as you can call your dog BACK to you and he complies, you've got control.
 
3a. This makes a lot of sense.  In the wild, the pack DOES have to work for the food, but even after the whole pack takes it down, who eats first?  The Alphas.  So, when you feed him, don't make him just do sits and downs (vary it up, don't make him always do the same thing), eat a cracker or cookie in front of him first.  It doesn't have to be something big...it can be a chip or a slice of toast, as long as you eat first before you set his food dish down.
 
4a.  A dog that works for everything he gets is more "appreciative" in a sense.  The dog thinks it's more worthwhile.  While that may be anthropomorphizing in a sense, it's true.  In the wild, canines must work for EVERYTHING they get!  Make him work for food, and for special things, like hopping on the bed or the couch.
 
5a.  If a dog is lying on the floor, and you step over him, it's extremely subtle, but you just told the dog that he's important.  He didn't have to move.  In the wild, does an alpha step over a subordinate?  Heck no!  He tells the blighter to move his furry arse!  So, if you're not telling your dog to move...start.  Sometimes it IS more convenient to step over puppy, but it's better if you make him move.  When Strauss is on the floor asleep, if he's in my way, he's in my way, and I wake him up and tell him to move.  He doesn't have to move FAR, just out of my way.  And if he wants to return to where he was before I said "move" that's absolutely fine...as long as his butt moves out of my way when I say so.

Willow gives very good advice.  Sounds like you're on the right track JoJo, and you'll probably find you end up with an even stronger bond with your dog.

why do you think you have to ask for a down-stay in particular? I prefer to mix it up and ask for a variety of different obedience commands throughout the day.
It's also possible he has no idea what you mean when you ask for a stay. He sounds highly motivated to get his dinner, which suggests his failure to comply is a lack of understanding. Note that STAY has two components, both of which should be taught and rewarded: the actual holding the position, and the release word. Many dogs are rather confused about their release word.

ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo
I'll say "down, stay" he lays down and then pops right back up.  I'll repeat the command and the second time he'll bark, lay down, and pop back up.  Sometimes he'll even rollover and do all his tricks at once.

 
This sounds like the classic description of a dog who has no idea what he's being asked to do. Whenever I'm teaching my dog a new command or trick, before he really understands it he'll run through his whole roster of tricks hoping to land on the right one. I think you and your dog would be better served by going back to the basics of obedience training, than by focusing so much on NILIF. Sometimes bad dog behavior is just the result of confusion and poor communicaton between him and his owner.

Jones, you're probably right.  It's just that, I just put him through obedience training, but as I said I don't think it did much.  I know he knows what "down" means because he'll do it, but then get right back up.  I know he knows what "stay" means because he'll do it for treats.  He also knows what "leave it" means and is very good at that.
 
I need to work on our release command - thanks for that advice Mudpuppy.
 
It's nice to know I can mix it up a little.  I'm sure he's getting really tired of "down stays."
 
As far as eating before him - yes we do.  We are also trying to remember to begin each walk with him "loose leash next to us."  I hadn't read anything about making him move instead of walking over him or walking through doorways first.  We'll start doing that too.  Wow, this is alot to remember after not doing this for 4 years.  Thanks for the advice.

I think what you need to do is perhaps "start over" with his sit/down.
 
If when you taught him sit/down you always awarded him immediately after the action, he never learned to hold his position.  It was just, "I put my put my butt down I get cookie, once I eat cookie I can get up!"
 
Start doing sit stays.  Put him in a sit (on lead) and stand nose to toes with him.  Count to five, give a cookie.  Each time you make him sit and wait progressively longer and longer, and then you start moving away in little bitty increments.  You never back away from your dog!  It entices them to come with you, and at this point in the game, that's not fair.
 
Once you can walk out 6 feet with your dog in a reliable stay, return to him (back to heel position) and give him a cookie.  You should always return behind your dog.  In order to do this and not have the dog get up, feed him a cookie while you walk behind him, so he nibbles on that instead of popping up to follow you.
 
Once he's got the sit all down pat, move to the down.  Do not immediately reward him for going down, as that is what he is used to.  If he stands up, don't say anything, wait for him to lie back down and give him a couple of secnods to remain in that position.
 
That should fix your "pop up problem"

Okay, today I took all of your advice and worked on "the release command."  I gave him a treat for staying, and then another treat for releasing the down stay.  You were right, it was obvious he didn't really understand that "okay" meant you can get up.  He's so cute he cocked his head like "are you sure."   But we're working on it and he's doing pretty good right now. 
 
I can't believe it, you guys were right. 

He's pretty good at staying.  During obedience classes we timed him for 10 minutes.  I can walk around the house and he'll continue staying for a treat, but he has a hard time staying for food - although that might be related to not understanding "okay" as the release command.  I think he thinks that the treat or food is the release command.  That's what we've been working on today.

Before Willow really "got it" that OK was when she could get up.  If she broke the sit before we said OK, I would make a no no noise, and re direct her back into the sit. 
 
A few times she started eating and especially in the beginning I had no choice but to let her eat since she was/is food aggressive.
 
But, after so many times of us stopping her and putting her back in the sit, saying "wait" again and then "OK", she figured it out.
 
Right now we are having an issue, my DH uses "go ahead" as the release command and I use "OK".  It's not really the right thing to do but Willow just went with it, I think at this point she's just waiting for someone to say anything.  But, now, she's not going on my "OK", she's suddenly waiting for ME to say "go ahead", which is DH's command.  I've never used it.  Bizarre!!
 
But, even weirder, if DH is in the room and she's waiting for the release command and he says "go ahead", she will NOT go unless I say she can.  If I'm there she won't go until I tell her. 
 

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has that problem.  Joey has no respect for my husband.  Never comes when he calls.  He'll look at me when Chris is giving him a command.  Stuff like that.  I started making DH, feed Joey by hand.  That's when I discovered that DH was also using a different release command then the "ok" that I use.  Uh, boys!

LOL, well she respects him but as second in command, I think.  Which for our family works well because I'm the primary care taker.  But, DH is with her at night while I work until 10pm so it's good they've got their little routine down.  I just can't believe it's effecting her release command with ME.  Ugh. . . poor thing doesn't know if she's coming or going.