No Bite

    • Gold Top Dog

    No Bite

    I know there is a post here already about a dog nipping at you and I have read the posts. There are a couple of new ideas to try on our dog, but here is the low down.

    Border Collie, Blue Healer, and Lab mix. He's 80 lbs and 9 mo old. He doesn't bite at me much because I ignore him when he bites me. I was also at the point when I rolled him over on his back and held his throat and said "no bite" This has seemed to work for the most part he leaves me alone.

    However my husband is nothing but a giant chew toy to him. When my husband tries to pet the dog, he bites, when husband walks, he bites the heels. When feeding, dog bites the hand. Spray bottles do not work as dog loves water. Bitter apple does not work, dog just likes it off then bites. Ignoring him does not seem to work for long. It's no time when husband starts getting bit again and again. We stuff a chew toy in his mouth, that is a temporary fix, when he is tired of the toy, he goes back to chewing husband. Oh and we give commands while he is biting. Sit, down, things like that. Dog barks and growls and snaps, but does do the commands.

    Any other suggestions?
    • Gold Top Dog
    You roll him and then hold his throat? Wow, I'm surprised he hasn't gotten p****d and really bitten your hubby. 
    • Silver
    What i do is!  use a  water spray (but try to be descrete) squirt it in is face, and say No! if he releases, tell him good boy..(this way you are saying no is a squirt in the face, realease and it a good boy and treat.....    Choose) .if he starts again, squirt again!  
      If he still procedd's to bite, be very matter of fact and take him away, placing him in his crate (for time out) 
      When he is calm, let him out...   if he does the same again, go through the method again...

    It could be trying the first few days, but once he knows No means no...  or he will be segregated from the pack, he'll soon start to learn...

    I pity your husband, cause this behavoiur has happened to me, (and it hurts! and is no fun)   The dog must learn not to bite, no matter how hard, no teeth permitted....

    Hope this helps, Lance..
    • Gold Top Dog
    The crate should never be used for something negative like a time out.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I was also at the point when I rolled him over on his back and held his throat and said "no bite" This has seemed to work for the most part he leaves me alone.

     
    He leaves you alone because he's afraid of you (for the moment).  What you very well may create by doing this is a dog with fear aggression though, and that's a bigger problem than you have right now.  When I rescued my lab, she was BOTH mouthy, as you describe, and fear aggressive.  So even scolding her (probably because she thought the next step would be physical punishment) resulted in her reacting aggressively.  What I found that worked for us was, anytime and everytime she mouthed us or nipped at our heels, I would give her the command to sit or lay down.  When she did, I'd praise her.  Sometimes it meant taking 2 steps, she'd mouth my arm, I'd turn and say "sit", she would and I'd praise.  Eventually she got tired of the "work" and quit mouthing altogether.  I'd suggest giving it a try.  It's good training on all the commands too.
    • Puppy
    Take it from a dog rescue operator and breeder, your 9 month old mix does not respect your husband as pack leader.  It sounds like you have started to establish leadership with a common alpha dog move...however, you should "bite" (a grip with fingers like a dog mouth) on the back of the neck, not on the throat.  Futher submission of rolling onto the back for you is a good thing as well. 
     
    Sounds like your husband should watch and read some Cesar Millan.  His show, The Dog Whisperer is a great resource and inspiration.  He explains that dogs are not humans.  They never learn to speak or truly understand speech.  They understand action, pack behaviors, and calm, asserative leadership.
     
    A quick fix on the biting until your husband establishes this role is a pack reaction to pain.  That would be the puppy whine or puppy yelp when being bitten.  The dog will continue to try the bites softer and softer at each yelp until he stops biting entirely because your husband keeps yelping.  This is the only true signal to pain that a dog understands...he learned it from his littermates and his mother.
     
    Give it a try and let me know how it worked!
     
    P.S. To the sprayer and crater...your dog can't understand all of these complex cause and effect consequences. 

    • Gold Top Dog
    Hmm, I really don't think dominance has to do with everything a dog does that we don't approve of. If you watch some dogs play, they nip and mouth each other quite a bit. I honestly see this as NORMAL puppy behavior. Was further bite inhibition ever taught once you brought him home? (i.e. the yelp and withdraw attention?)
     
    I completely do not agree with using physical corrections such as alpha roles or pinches. What the heck does that teach the dog? Alpha Roll = scary, better stay away. Pinch = HEY LOOK, ya bit me back, let's play!
     
    Rather than Ceasar Millan, I think you should buy the book Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.
     
    You might also be interested in this article by Ian Dunbar:
    [linkhttp://www.crickethollowfarm.com/biteinhib.htm]http://www.crickethollowfarm.com/biteinhib.htm[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I do not recommend the use of a spray bottle prior to 6 months and only then as a distraction.  This is the sequence....give the NO BITE command (NO tells your dog absolutely nothing) wait a second or two for compliance and then spritz 1/2 a spray to the neck area.
     
    Tread carefully with using the crate as a time out.  If you use it for such, you must be very calm and matter of fact.  However, it is better if YOU leave the room.
     
    I have raised MANY litters and NEVER used the alpha roll, never physically abused the pups to stop the nipping, and never grabbed a pup by the throat or the neck and pinched hard.  Nor have I ever relied on Cesar Milan for hints on how to abuse my pups.
     
    And I am a former breeder and a current foster mom to wayward mommas about to drop their litters.
    • Puppy
    Dominance does not mean aggression or 'scary' corrections as you put it.  If you understood anything about dogs, packs or dog behavior you would realize your error.  Dominance is calm, assertive leadership.  Only the dog with this Alpha, leadership quality is the leader of a pack.  Make no mistake about it, if you own a dog, inside or outside, than you ARE PART OF IT'S PACK.  What role you play in it is entirely up to your leadership qualities based on this dog's experiences...NOT your human experiences.  To lead a dog, you must understand that it's behavior is based on thousands of years of instincts and pack learning.  To train or lead like a human is a mistake because a dog is NOT human.  He is an animal driven by instinct.  Instinct tells him to follow the established Alpha leader of a pack...DOG PACK, not human!  To lead as a human over a dog, you must learn, accept, and exhibit Alpha dog qualities and corrections.
     
    Perhaps if you stop thinking of your pet as a PET, you might relieve them of their frustrations and fulfill their needs as a DOG.  Until then, we will have UNDESIRABLE behaviors based on HUMAN failures to understand, lead and Alpha correct our dogs.
     
    animal_magnet

    • Gold Top Dog
    Goodness, you sure are making one heck of a lot of assumptions. 
     
    I have SIX german shepherds and each and every one of them knows who ALPHA in this house is and gosh no, I don't physically or emotionally abuse them to establish that position.  I don't need to.  FIVE of my dogs have earned their CGC....not bad for a clueless person who just is a member of the pack.........But, I don't need to use dominance to get what I want from MY dogs.  Guess I must REALLY be screwing these poor guys up.........
    • Puppy
    I feel sorry for you Glenda.  That you think that Cesar Milan is teaching 'how to abuse my pups' is very sad.  Obviously, you have never watched The Dog Whisperer on Nat. Geo. Channel.  He saves dogs from being put to sleep due to their uncontrollable behavior or aggressions.  He rehabilates these dogs based on calm, asserative leadership techniques.  Perhaps you should get your facts straight.  Being Alpha is the exact opposite of abuse.  It is mild corrections with positive, calm, authority that leaves no room for fear in a learning dog.  But mostly, I am saddened for your dogs since you allow them to lead you.
     
    Again, I state, that grabbing a throat of a dog is not how an Alpha dog or mother corrects her pups.  She mouths the back of the neck in a pinch, not a bite.  It is sad that you read what you want and not the entirety of my statements.
     
    I also, rescue, breed, train, and show dogs.  With over 25 years experience, I have been practicing what Cesar teaches for the last 3 years.  It has improved the quality of my dogs behaviors as well as our relationships with our animals.  I have yet to fail to fully 'rehabilitate' a rescue since employing his techniques.   With proper learning and understanding like Cesar Milan advocates...no dog should EVER be abused or destroyed!
     
    animal_magnet 
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Another good read,

    How to be the Leader of the Pack and Have Your Dog Love You for it by Patricia McConnell.
     
    animal_magnet, my dog also knows who's alpha. I did go the Millan route at first (boy howdy, it sure seemed to work on TV!) but, honestly, alpha rolling and pinching is not going to solve a mouthy 9 month old puppy. If you consistently believe that a dog does things wrong (BTW, dogs don't have an understanding between right and wrong) because it's status seeking, you're not going to properly be able to modify the behavior. I suspect this puppy wasn't taught bit inhibition at an early enough age with understanding of how sensitive we as humans are. He doesn't trust one owner but the other seems safe enough.
     
    BTW, beta wolves are the ones constantley obsessing with showing their dominance. An alpha is actually quite tolerant and even handed.
     
    In closing, while I don't appreciate you making the assumption that I treat my dog like a person, I take it with a grain of salt. I treat my dog like a dog, not some status seeking, misbehaving creature to whom I must physically punish. Is she perfectly behaved? No, definately not. Does she respect me? You bet. Does she trust me? Yup. A year ago, I was following advice simliar to what you're giving... my dog rarely behaved, didn't trust me, and mouthed a lot. I found this forum and was enlightened. Now I enjoy her for what she is, a dog with a beautiful mind, not a drone to do as I say because I'm the "alpha." I also used to be a Millan fan, but have since seen that he takes nearly a "one size fits all approach" and I know wish to delve a little further into animal behavior.
     
    But that's enough of my ramblings.
    [/soapbox]
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Glenda, is one of the kindest dog owners out there. I used no pyhsical corrections on any of my three dogs and they all know who the boss is. Me. Sure they try to push the limit sometimes, but they know it won't work on me. Dad maybe. Not me. My dogs are much more secure knowing that they don't need to be in charge. It eases their mind to know that I'll take care of everything.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Gosh, there you go with the assumptions again.
     
    I have seen more than enough of CM to know that I don't want him in the same TOWN as my dogs, forget getting close enough to put his hands on them.  Being alpha does not require me to be dominant.  I'm sorry that you have found yourself unable to be a benevolent leader and still need to rely on dominance to control your animals.
     
    With proper training from the get go, no dog would ever NEED CM's techniques.  Too bad that people don't put the time in early and often and instead let their dogs get to the point that they are totally uncontrollable.
     
    Oh, and your sympathies for me and my dogs?  Save that for the dogs being run half to death on CM's treadmills.
    • Silver
    [size=4]P.S. To the sprayer and crater...your dog can't understand all of these complex cause and effect consequences. 
    [/size]
     
    It's simple!  to bite means a squirt of water!
    not to bite! means a treat!
    if he is not reponsive! time out in the crate or his sleeping area...  till he refocuses...
     
    whats hard to understand about that...