Fear Aggression????

I totally understand how you feel. This has just started happening with our 15 mo. flat coat mix;a big, sweet, lovey, (neutered) boy. Hes been socialized both with people and dogs, We had a minor incident this morning which I was able to fend off by making him sit, then lay down. He was still a little growly but it never escalated to the frenzy of his last couple episodes. Fortunately it was someone I knew so I explained the situation, but I'm sure its scary having a 75lb dog growling at you. After he got a chance to settle down he was fine with her. But I really think its one of those situations where it would be better to be safe than sorry, my advice would be to call your trainer. It would be worth it to you and your dog to invest in a little private one-on-one before the behaviour gets any more ingrained (i.e. its just plain FUN to scare the bipeds!). Just so you don't inadvertently make the situation worse. We actually have an appointment with our trainer today. Will let you know if he has any sage words.

Well, we had our session with the trainer. And of course he didn't act up or try to boss the bipeds(mookie, not the trainer!). Long story short, the trainer thinks that since it never happens when hes alone with my husband, that most likely Mookie views me as an equal that needs protection. His suggestions to me were to be proactive. When he is on leash and someone is approaching to make him either sit or go into a lay down stay. Try to get him to make eye contact with me, rather than focus on the approaching person. In short, distract from the bad behavior and reward the positive. Treat for the lay down etc. He also noticed that when people were approaching I was stiffening up.....sending that bit of tension down the lead to my dog, who in turn thinks he needs to be on alert. He also suggested that we ask people to not try and pet him until we(I) get the behaviour modified. Though I can't imagine anyone wanting to pet the snarling beast my boy becomes when hes in protection mode. Also he said not to let Mookie lay on my feet when I am at the computer....a subtle form of dominance. And I just liked having warm feet.

I still think it might be a good idea for you to call your trainer, esp. in light of the fact that HB is trying to "be the boss of you". Don't give up on her, she sounds like a great girl.

Thanks, Mookie's mom!  I have been researching this subject on a lot of dog behaviour websites and I had seen most of what your trainer mentions.  EXCEPT that part about HB acting aggressive because she is seeing me as an equal and trying to protect me.  That was really an eye opener.  (Since I am daily trying to be Alpha around here.)  (I had thought at one time that I had achieved Alpha, and so then I let up.  WRONG!  She was ruling the roost again instantly.)
We see our trainer on Sunday afternoon at 1:00, so I thought I would talk to her then.  I'll let you know what her input is.
But, your stuff was really good. 
Thanks so so much!

Hey trilby999,
I also thought that Mookie saw me as one step above on the food chain, but much to my chagrin thats not the case! Though at least I rate somewhat above the 3 kitties!

Its funny, until we got the Mookie I was a bona fide cat person. Not even remotely interested in anything canine. Something switched though when we got the puppy. I NEVER thought I'd love someone who was peeing all over my carpet (never on the hardwood), biting and barking at anything that moved, showed my underwear to anyone and everyone who came to the house and howled incessantly when we crated him. Now, I can't imagine life without him.

Anyway I'm interested in what your trainer has to say, so let me know. In some weird way it helps to know that someone else is going through the same thing and its not that my dog is suddenly turned into a punk!

Hi MM,
We just left the training hour.  I am still shaking, as my 50 lb HoneyBear decided today that she wanted to KILL a black German Shepard.  It's odd how she decides what it is she wants to freak out about.  There is a different black GS in our class, and the two dogs get along quite well.  Altho I will note that the GS she snarled at and tried to get at was wearing a big funny (maybe not so funny) clown collar around her neck.  Hey... come to think of it... maybe it was the clown collar more than the dog that got HB so intense???
Anyway, talked to our trainer.  She wants me to squirt the Bear with a water pistol the next time this happens.  Actually, she was 'packing' a water pistol today and squirted HB when the big fight started... and it pretty much ended it FAST. 
The problem was discussed before class started, and the ruckus happened on the way out the door. 
I questioned the trainer about "escalating the aggression" by this squirt gun method and she told me, "No, you are nipping it in the bud... not escalating it".
I, truthfully, still question it.   But, when she zapped HB in the side of the head with the water, it certainly shut her up and it even seemed to diffuse the entire ugly situation. 
So, anyway, it worked right then and there. 
So, I guess I will try it out in the real world, on our walks.
I'll keep you updated on the results.
Also, I was so humiliated in class today when HB wouldn't even SIT for me (the first and most basic command she learned - weeks ago!) and when my husband stepped up and said "sit", she it the floor like a bag of potatoes.  I am really not an authority figure to her.  I really have to work on it.  And keep working on it. 
Right now, both the HB and her mom are totally wiped out.
Let me know if you hear of other ideas... I am continually learning how to cope with an Alph Wheaten Terrier Female.  Man, she is stubborn and strong!
And adorable.
 

My sense is that squirting is not going to be what keeps this from happening.  A squirt may not continue to squelch the behavior, and you really aren't teaching her much - in fact, you could be teaching her that other dogs squirt her LOL.  Your timing, and use of commands that she already knows, could make it effective, but I'd rather see establish  yourself as a leader in all situations.
My advice would be to have your hubby bow out for a few weeks.
You hand feed this dog for those weeks, and then you put the bowl on the floor and drop kibble in for a week or so.  NILIF.  If your dog wants to go out, it is you she must come to, and you will ask her to "sit" and "wait" before you let her out.  If she wants to play, fine.  But, you will ask that she lie down or give you her paw first.  She needs to earn everything, and you need to earn her respect. 
I would suggest that you take her to a class, and leave your husband at home - then she must depend on you only.
If you are nervous about doing this, get her used to wearing a muzzle - then, she's the safest dog in the room, and you don't need to clutch her leash tighter when she reacts.
Grab a copy of "Feisty Fido" by Patricia McConnell.  Lots of good hints there and it isn't expensive.

I would have to agree with Spiritdogs about the squirting not being the "cease and desist" with this behavior. Someone suggested we use a citronella collar, but our trainer said that he'd rather I got control over him by establishing the pack order in a way that Mookie really understands. Plus use of the collar could potentially backfire and make him even more afraid of strangers by thinking hes going to get a blast to the face.

Another one of the techniques he's having us practice is eye contact. Mooks doesn't really want to look me in the eyes when I ask. So we're working on it. If I could only replace an eye with a liver treat we'd be golden.

Good suggestions Spiritdogs. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to be consistant. Especially when you're feelin' the love. Not only am I having to train my dog, but now am retraining myself. Trilby, don't get discouraged. Remember you drive the car, HB can't! Though if she had opposable thumbs........keep us updated.

Spiritdogs... nice to hear from you.  I've read so much of your stuff, I feel honored that you are trying to help me!
I had read a few days ago about the NILIF concept and I initiated it last Friday (not that long ago, but I intend to continue to enforce it).  That was the day after the 'school girl' incident and I had become frantic for help. Led me to finally join this forum that I had been reading for a few weeks.
I will have my husband 'disappear' for now.  I will be walking and feeding and controling the (dog) show around here.  I may, even, take her to class myself next Sunday.  That is an interesting concept.  You see, I have this feeling that keeps tugging at me , the feeling is that HoneyBear is actually afraid under all her bravado.
She was an owner turn it TWICE before we rescued her.  That had to have done a number on her head and sense of security.  In times of agression, I've seen her quickly sneak a look at me... and I thought "is she afraid or is she a killer?"
Anyway, thanks much.  I am going to get that book, too.  I've seen you reference it before and now I'm going to read it.
Mookies Mom... we graduate (USING THAT TERM VERY LOOSELY) from this particular class Sunday after next.  After that I am going to invest in one on one training.  I'm going to call my beloved vet and ask her if she has someone to recommend.  Yesterday's class was such a bust that I can't wait to start over.
And, also, YES .... I have the same lack of eye contact problem with the Bear.  She will not only NOT look at me... she turns her head, sometimes even her whole body, to a 90 degree angle away from me.  When you think about it, it is a very telling bit of body language. She not only doesn't currently respect me, she is telling me she doesn't even WANT to respect me.  This is going to be something we will work on all day, every day. 
I look back on the first weeks we had her and wish I had it to do over.  I was literally laying on the floor with her, kissing her and stroking her and loving her with all the littermate appropriate movements and sounds.  Wow... wish I hadn't started her out like that.
A peek into my psyche here.... earlier this spring my beloved companion and best friend  of 15 years died of old age.  Pongo and I were inseparable for all of those 15 years.  (I work at home, so I mean inseparable).  Pongo was not so much a dog as he was a lamb.  Totally sensitive and passive. And loving and obedient.
OK... that is what I had been used to.  And I got myself a dog that is 100% opposite of the lamb. 
That's ok though, because I do love the girl.  And it's nice that I NEVER EVER compare her to Pong.  It would be laughable. 
Thanks for all the good input and I'll keep you both posted on our new Respect Mom program.

Hey T999,
As I was reading your last post, some of the similarities are absolutley spooky! I also work at home, so am at home 100% of the time. Our first dog, passed away one year ago and even though I was the Cat person in the house I was devastated. I didn't appreciate what a great girl she truly was, until she was gone. Having that dog energy gone from the house was awful, everything was so dreadfully silent. Then when we got Mookie, I played on the floor with him, just like you described. Looking back I think I went a little overboard in my new found canine appreciation.

The eye contact thing is a big deal I think. We're working on it, but it is EXACTLY as you describe. We did have a small victory today on our walk. We saw the FED EX man with a PACKAGE! I got Mook's attention with a treat before he could get all growly, made him sit and pay attention to me. The fed ex guy was able to talk to us and even pet Mookie without even a hint of incident. Yea!

MM-  Good progress with that Fed Ex guy!
Today is a new day and I am initiating some Gestapo tactics around here.  I've decided to never let HB go thru a doorway before me.  (I didn't used to think it mattered... but I'll bet it DOES).  Also, I am demanding eye contact here in the house (on walks - that's another story - we'll have to work up to that) I've also taken up the "Kibble buffet" that has been always available.  (Thanks to Spiritdogs idea)
Last, but not least, I am going to alter my femmie little girl voice.  No more.  I will use a normal tone and when I give commands I am going to try to sound really really serious and tough.  
How about that?          

I am also ordering that book on Feisty Fido.  Forgot that.

While you are establishing your authority and resolving this situation be very careful of how you feel and react to these situations.  You dogs behavior is not a reflection of you or your dog...it's just behavior.
 
Feelings of humiliation and embarrassment are unsettling feelings, and they can effect how your dog sees you.  These feelings will also effect how well your dog performs.
 
Also, don't start each training experience hoping  your dog is going to comply.  Every time you give your dog a command or start an experience (i.e. training class, the FedEx guy, a walk around the neighborhood) you have to KNOW that your dog is going to comply or act appropriately.  A big part of the dog acting appropriately is believing/knowing the dog will.
 
I can walk into a new clients home, and immediately command and control there dog. Owners are always like "wow" he never listens to anyone.  The trick is that I don't hope the dog will listen...I KNOW the dog is going to listen.
 
Same goes for walking the dog.  I finished an appointment a few hours ago with two Chihuahua's that go crazy when they see another dog or person.  I watched the owner walk the dogs first, and sure enough....the dogs went crazy when a neighbor walked by.  I then took over the reigns and walked the dogs past walkers, dogs, skateboarders, kids on bikes, etc.  They didn't even flinch.  
 
Why?  Because I absolutely knew that I could keep them under control.  Half the battle is believing it. 
 
Same goes for the husband mentioned above...when he asked the dog to sit he KNOWS the dog is going to sit...so what does the dog do...he sits!
 
Confidence is key!
 
 

MRGMFOSTER - Well.  That is certainly hitting the nail on the head. 
You have described me!!!   I am ABSOLUTELY (secretly) "hoping" that HoneyBear will do the commands or not attack the child.  I never thought about MY behaviour and how much it affects her behavior.
I am just sitting here flabbergasted.   I've realized that I am walking on eggshells around my own dog.
I will impliment this new and outrageously simple concept immediately.
I've also just ordered the book "The Feisty Fido".
Thank you and thank you, again!

Here is the morning walk update:
I was walking her alone, early this morning.  As we rounded the first corner, I see -oh no - two village water trucks and four village employees.  All four are big men, in uniforms, all a waiving around these long sensor things to find the buried water main.
I repeat. OH NO.
HoneyBear sees them and LUNGE and SNARL.  In a heartbeat, I snapped her back with a big voice "HEY"!  I stand directly in front of her and command "SIT".
Oh my God.  She sat.  I said "STAY".  OMG.  She stayed.
All these men are (of course) watching the show.  And I am sooooooo proud.
Needless to say, I didn't press my luck.  We politely crossed the street and continued on our walk.
Wow.  I am feeling really good.  I feel ALPHA!!!  Ha ha!
Thanks to all , so far, who have helped me with all the good advice.
Mookie's Mom - how about that????