NILIF or intensive training program???

    • Silver

    NILIF or intensive training program???

    I wrote a few weeks ago about Molly's aggressiveness/biting problem.  We had a trainer/behaviorist come to the house to evaluate her.  Molly at first was very shy and submissive.  A little while later she showed her "other" side - she growled and lunged at the trainer and was staring at her and making this low, threatening growling sound.   She said that Molly is about a 9 out of 10 in aggressiveness.  She really is loving and sweet most of the time, but there are these daily occurances of resource guarding and not listening to simple commands (come, sit, drop it, leave it).  The trainer said because of this aggressiveness, she is not a candidate for group training classes.

    The trainer has suggested a very intensive 3-week training program at her place and using a remote collar (static pulsation) for much of the training.  It's a bit pricy, but would be worth it if we could guarantee that THIS will "fix" her aggressiveness.

    My question is, if we decided NOT to do a training program like this, would NILIF work to "fix" her aggressiveness, or would using NILIF just be putting preventative measures in place so as not to upset Molly or put her in situations where she would become aggressive?

    • Gold Top Dog
    How is she planning on fixing the problem using static correction? 
     
    With fear aggression, this is a very complicated way to go.  It is possible, but is hard to do.
     
    I do not think strict NILIF fixes severe aggression, especially if your dog is really a 9/10 on a scale of aggression. 
     
    I have to wonder about this trainer though.  I would consider a 9/10, a dog that I couldn't touch or interact with for weeks.  Some of the dogs I work with I can't even come near for a month, and they show NO fear. 
     
    Before you spend the money to do "boot camp" please find out the exact protocols this trainer plans to use.  I would expect to know the entire process word for word.
     
    "Boot Camp" programs can be necessary in cases of severe aggression...mainly for owner safety.  They normally take about 120-160 days, and I wouldn't normally use static correction. 
     
    What is the age, weight, and breed of your dog?
    • Silver
    Thanks for the quick reply!  Molly is a 6 month old Havanese/Lhasa Apso mix.  She's mostly havanese though, just a quarter lhasa... She weighs about 8 lbs and has already been spayed.

    I don't really know if she's REALLY a 9/10 - when she is being aggressive and biting. I can get her away from the object or whatever that is making her protective or defensive and in the next few seconds, she's loving Molly again, licking me and no growling!

    She also stressed that her program is not "boot camp."  Now, she IS the first and only professional (besides the "trainer" at Petsmart where Molly took the puppy class and learned the basics with no problem and no aggression in class.), so I don't know what is bootcamp and what isn't...

    I believe she said she would use the remote collar in the 2nd and 3rd week - I'm guessing she is talking about using it when Molly exhibits the inappropriate behavior.


    • Gold Top Dog
    If she is talking about only using it when Molly is acting aggressively then she will be using the collar incorrectly.
     
    Please find out exactly how it is going to be used, and let me know.
     
    Any in house training is basically boot camp.  The dog sleeps, eats, and trains (maybe a little playtime on the side).  The rest is semantics.
     
    I would never use a remote collar on an 8 pound dog.  There just is no reason for it.  Mainly because with a small dog there is room for error. Worse case scenario, you have to put on a band-aid.  If we were talking about a lab, golden, or rott...I might agree...there's no room for error there. 
     
    Does this trainer have a website.
     
    I am not tying to give you a hard time.  I do realize that your resources may be limited.  I do, however, want to make sure the problem doesn't get worse.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I would NOT send one of my dogs off.  She's just a baby still!  IF you can't handle her now with NILF, how are you gonna handle her after this 3 week miracle cure?  The biggest part of training is training YOU to train and handle your dog.  I just don't see how this can be accomplished by sending a PUPPY off to a stranger.
     
    I respect Mic totally and *might* send an older animal to him, but it would have to be an EXTREME situation, and honestly I don't think you've got that with your little one.
    • Silver
    Do you think this trainer is just telling us that Molly's aggressiveness is 9 out of 10 and it will take a really extensive program to help her, etc.  just to "scare" us into going with her, as if there is no other program that will work better?

    I don't understand this sending her away when we should be a big part of the training, myself!  The trainer will have a two-hour session with us to teach us what she has been doing and how to handle her.  And then, with her residence programs, the dog has free lessons for life - so anytime we need a refresher course...

    We will obviously look into some other trainers to get some other opinions and options.  We really want to fix this problem if we can!

    Also - can the owners cause aggression in a dog or is it a personality trait of the dog?



    • Silver
    Also - Mic - if you were approached by a family with a little puppy with this aggressiveness, what would you recommend?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm not a trainer....just an old broad with one heck of a lot of dog experience.....BUT I don't think that this pup is all that agressive from what I've read.  Yeah, she needs some serious training and some strict NILF, but aversives, etc, just aren't called for. And in TWO HOURS, you're gonna somehow magically have a handle on how to make her behave?  I'm pretty smart and I have a ton of dog experience, but I dont' think I'd catch on in 2 hours.
     
    I think that probably in the right circumstances, yes an owner might be able to "make" a dog agressive.  Usually tho, it's a matter of a bratty puppy thinking that SHE is in charge and the owners not having any idea how to get a handle on it.
    • Silver
    Glenmar - I've read a lot of your posts and I really value your expertise.  I know there are many on here with loads of dog experience.  That's why I'm here, reading and researching and trying to figure out what the right thing is to do... 

    I do appreciate your input on my various posts.  And it is experienced dog owners like you who are a huge help to first time owners like us!

    That's why I came here with questions about what this particular trainer is recommending.  If I felt it was the right thing to do, no questions asked, I would have told her "yes" on the phone the day she went through the program with me.


     


    • Gold Top Dog
    Aw, gee, ya made me blush!
     
    I think you need to follow that gut instinct that this isn't the right plan for your pup.  Like I said, with a 3 year old SHEPHERD, maybe...but not with a tiny little girl who's still a pup and still really moldable if that's a word!
    • Gold Top Dog
    With ten being the most aggressive dog ever born, I definitely wouldn't classify any PUPPY as a 9/10. Of course, I'm not a trainer, either. I'm not even old enough to be considered an old broad, LOL.  Puppies just aren't THAT bad! Emma was a HORRIBLE puppy (much, MUCH, much worse than Molly sounds) and as a novice trainer, I did not have to send her off to boot camp, and never used an electric collar on her. She's not 100% reliable not to bite, but she's 1000x better, with NILIF and keeping her medical issues controled.
    • Gold Top Dog
    When I first read the post I was unaware of the breed and age of the dog.  I apologize I have a heck of a time trying to keep everyones dogs straight.  There are days I can't even keep mine straight. 
     
    With a six month, 8#, puppy I would never boot camp this dog.  You have what I like to call, a brat!
     
    In this case, exercise (mental and physical), discipline (nilif & obedience), restricted freedom (limited access to house and objects), is the answer.  I think this trainer is trying to take you for a bit of a ride.  I might charge you $500 for about 8 private in home lessons with a bratty pup (at the most), and you would be all set. 
     
    A dog coming in for training (boot camp) would cost you $1500-$3000 and YOU still may not know how to handle the pup.
     
    I don't want to sound like an ass, but you may be the cause of this problem.  I think this little dog is taking advantage of you, and you are allowing it (unintentionally I'm sure).  You are the one that needs the training...the dog to...but especially you.
     
    I don't even think we are talking about real aggression in this case.  I think you need to find a group class or someone will come to your home.  I would allow your dog...even with the "aggression" into a group class.  The class environment may teach him some manners.
    • Silver
    Ok - I just took a break and went to play with Molly a bit , brushed her and TRIED to clean the guk out of her eyes.  When I got to the wiping her eyes part, she lunged at me, biting, but luckily didn't break skin.  I got up and walked away.  I know she doesn't like to get her eyes/face cleaned, but what am I supposed to do in a situation like this?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I am going to be really honest here.  I would have forced the dog to deal with me.  Walking away from this kind of situation can teach the dog that growling and biting gets things accomplished (like not having our faced wiped). 
     
    I would have gently scruffed the dog, turned her on her side, and held her there until she calmed down.  Once she was calm I would begin gently petting her face (holding her in the same position).  Once the petting was accepted without confrontation, I would pet with a rag, and then begin wiping.  I would do this about 5-10 times per day until my scuffing and wiping was readily accepted.  Always end each face cleaning with a treat for calmness and play time to deal with the anxiety.
     
    *For all the lurkers...we are talking about an 8 pound dog.  This protocol can be dangerous with larger breeds*
    • Silver
    Mic - I appreciate your honesty.  I know you are right about just keeping going until she accepts that her behavior is not going to prevent me from grooming her.  We have A LOT to learn. 

    Like I said, we will be looking into some other trainers - I wish we were in Ohio - I'd call you!  Know any good trainers in Upstate NY?