NILIF or intensive training program???

Haha. I'm not typically rough with my dogs, at all, but mine know that if they wanna lift a lip over normal stuff like nail trims, face wiping, etc, they'll just have their muzzles held shut, and it gets done, anyways. It's pretty effective. They are also small dogs (one has inflicted a couple of serious [meaning skin broken, black and blue, sore for weeks] bites, but no longer acts that way). I'm protected, and they learn something. They learn that they don't get their way. I hold their heads at the vet, as well. They react much more calmly, that way, and Emma (the one who was the biter) has had a significant attitude change about vet care since I started doing it myself. I guess it has to do with the fact that I'm the boss and if I say it's ok, it is.

Gosh.... For the record, what is appropriate action if a large dog is being bratty?

My large dogs don't have a chance to be bratty.[][]
 
This is exactly why its so crucial that the breeder and then the new owner handle every part of the dogs body EVERY day.
 
I see the validity in Mic's suggestion...I dont' like it...but it's probably neccessary.  That or muzzle the little stinker.

I have a question after reading all these posts I never once saw the mention of a tempermant test being done. Whoever this trainer is...regardless of her experience...a dog cannot be properly assesed in aggression unless it is tested for it.
 
Was one done or is it just in her opinion? If it was....what was the result? Is it fear aggression for sure? It sounds little more on the dominance side which can lead into aggression. In my opinion...if it is fear based an ecollar will not work. If it is dominance aggression I have seen too many cases to count where an electric collar has successfully changed the behaviour. Below I have included 2 articles written by my boss who I am learning animal behaviour from. We use e-collars on some dogs....others we don't. E-collars work the same as electric fences and bark collars only YOU have the control all the time which reinforces dominance over your dog....ultimately getting rid of the dominance issue. One more thing...todays "electric collars" are not actually electric if you go with the right brand. They use static stimulation similar to a tens machine used for muscular therapy to reduce muscle spasms etc. They are not the old school "shockers". Nonetheless here is some information for you to help make your decision because ultimately we may be able to deal with our dog lunging at us but what happens when he bites a child? I think that I would rather have the ecollar than have to deal with putting him down but that is just my opinion.
 
Remote Collars -- Why They Should Be Left On
Since training people to use electronic collars is something that I do as a profession, I am constantly asked questions such as, "Does the collar have to always be on the dog?"; "Doesn't the dog become collar wise?"; or "Shouldn't I just use it when a problem arises that cannot be fixed by other methods?". Since collar conditioning is a completely different subject, let's assume for argument's sake that the dog is either "collar conditioned" already, or going through the process presently. The first fact that is important to accept is REINFORCEMENT NEVER ENDS! The quicker we accept this, whether we are using an ecollar or not, the better off you will be.
My dogs never leave the house without an ecollar on. Is it because they will not perform without it? Certainly not. Dogs are trained to be off-leash, correct? I would assume that the dog is smart enough to recognize that the leash is no longer connected, yet habit is established. If you have ever watched a trained dog walking down the street with its owner and it has on a choke chain, you certainly do not see the owner tugging at the leash every second. With an ecollar, it does not mean that you are pushing buttons every second either.
Let's stop for a second so I can make an analogy. In the work force, people who have been at their jobs for any length of time, obviously know their job pretty well. Whether it is cooking french fries at McDonalds or working for an accounting firm, you would know your job pretty well after a while. Even in those instances, they do not just fire all of the managers, and let you pick up your check under the door every Friday. Someone is still there to constantly oversee the operation to ensure that it's functioning properly. Without that, the organization would fall apart quickly. Dog training is no different. I'm sure your dog was "trained" how to "sit" a long time ago. Now, whether he always does it when asked -- well, that's another matter.
O.K.--now that we have accepted that reinforcement never ends, we can move on. The reason that the ecollar is kept on when moving outdoors, is because as you step outside the house a lot of factors enter into the picture that you have no control of. Loose dogs, cats, kids on bikes, trucks driving by with dogs in the back, and people playing frisbee are just a few. When your dog is 50 yards away from you and he is creeping on a "down" command, a few variables enter into the picture. To correct the dog, the time that it takes you to get back there slows learning tremendously.
Also, it is very hard to not get emotional about it because you want it to cease immediately, thus further creating another bad habit of yelling at the dog. Another thing that happens is when you are finally able to correct the dog, it has moved, and gotten away with a fair distance before the correction can be applied. Obviously, a drop on recall or while moving can be brought about much quicker, and with much less correction and stress on the dog.
While using an ecollar, these problems can be dealt with immediately, and unemotionally. If the level needs to be moved up or down to suit the correction, it can be without any elevation in the voice. It's as if you are right there correcting him, without the yelling. He is, in effect, causing the correction on himself. HE caused the collar to turn on.
People would say, "Well this may create a shy, timid, inhibited dog". Quite the opposite. Electronic collars are used on hunting dogs on a daily basis. They may want their dog to lie down at 200 yards away because a deer is running by, or to come back to them in that instance. It is no different than you or I wanting our dogs to lie down at a distance because a cat, or a dog, or a mailman is passing. The only difference being that if he doesn't, we can reinforce immediately. If he does -- great! The dog at least gets another repetition in that he must comply immediately, or it could cost him his life.
If electronic collars made a hunting dog too scared to do its task, or diminish it in any way, hunters and field trial people certainly would not be using them on a daily basis, and having them as an integral part of their training program. Field trials are definitely among the most difficult of all dog sports. It demands desire and precision at great distances, and in 'non-patterned' formats that make it all the more difficult.
One Las Vegas K-9 unit recently went to electronic collars about two years ago. They just took "top dog" and "top agency" at the Western States Canine Trials, and obviously the dogs are not allowed to perform with ecollars on. Recalls become quicker, smoother, and very happily performed because the dog knows exactly what is expected. "Out" commands have meaning everywhere and anywhere, and on anything. I would definitely recommend that you attend an electronic collar seminar and make up your mind for yourself. All you need to bring with you is your pair of eyes -- the rest will take care of itself.
 
2nd article
 
Gaining Reliability

The reason that dogs don't obey all the time is that they are gamblers. Let's see if I can do what I wanna do THIS time!

I recommend this method to ensure reliability. In my opinion either a dog is reliable or he's not. Reliability means 100%. My bottom line is that if the dog is off leash and he's not wearing the Ecollar you can't give him a correction and therefore you can't guarantee reliability. Some people don't need reliability but others, particularly those with Search and Rescue dogs, Personal Protection dogs or Police Service Dogs; DO need reliability. But just because you own a pet, rather than a working dog, doesn't mean that you too, can't have a reliable dog.

When you start training there's a temptation to Let's see if he's getting it. That is to give a command and not give a stimulation. Usually, if you've been following protocol, the dog WILL perform. But you've just taught him a valuable lesson, one that will cause you grief later on, even though it's not apparent now. It just takes one of these tests (more tests is worse) to teach the dog this lesson. This lesson is that a stimulation doesn't always come when the command is given. When this occurs before the dog has the habit of performing every time, it can end in an undesirable result, unreliability.

Automatic Corrections

I recommend that people use automatic corrections that is they give a stimulation EVERY time they give a command, even if the dog is in the act of performing the movement, for the first two months of their training. That means 60 days of working the dog, not 60 days, elapsed time. At the end of those 60 days give a command but don't give a stimulation. As long as the dog performs you're OK. Start a count and if you get to 30 days (of training, not 30 calendar days) and you haven't had to give a stimulation because the dog didn't perform, you can remove the Ecollar. But if just once the dog didn't perform and you had to give him a stimulation along with a second command, start your count over again.

Restarting Your Count

At some point later on, your dog will gamble. That is he'll be more interested in doing what he wants to do than obeying your command. When he does this put the Ecollar back on for a week of automatic stimulations. Then you can start your 30-day count again.

For those working dogs mentioned above, Search and Rescue dogs, Personal Protection dogs and Police Service Dogs I recommend that they wear the Ecollar all the time, when they're deployed. For those dogs we often can't afford nor have time for a second command.

How Reliable is Reliable Enough?

This is a question that only you can answer. If you don't mind having to call your dog three times then neither do I. But it's not acceptable for a police service dog and can cause serious problems with SAR dogs and pets as well. If it takes three commands to get your dog to sit as he runs toward a highway, you might find that when he finally does comply he's in the middle of the road.

If you have the dog wear the Ecollar as long as he's outside the home or whenever he deploys you have the ability to correct him if he doesn't perform. If the Ecollar is back home, you can't.

I've been asked a few times if 60 days of automatic stimulations is really necessary. I've found that it's not always necessary with every dog. But I've found that all dogs respond if it's done this way. YOUR dog might only need 45 days or 30 days of automatic stimulations but then some people will assume that because their dog is working OK that he only need 20 days. The result of cutting this corner is unreliability. [/size][/font] 

I am not convinced that you have an aggressive dog.  Very few puppies are truly aggressive.  Many, however, are bored, bossy, or pushy.  If the humans in their lives don't know how to train, or are not providing enough exercise, then things can go south quickly as the dog becomes an adolescent.
My advice would be to find a good positive reinforcement training class and go!
Find one here:
www.ccpdt.com
www.clickertraining.com

These are two articles I colaborated on a while back in response to the articles above.  Automatic corrections and escape training techniques are old fashion, and although effective, are unfair.
 
Automatic Corrections
What#%92s an automatic correction? I will offer an example. Old school training, 25 years ago, said to teach your dog to heel you walked in a straight line and at some point you make a turn or reversed your direction of travel. At the exact moment of the turn you automatically corrected the dog with a leash correction. The theory being he would have been out of position when you turn because he is not paying close enough attention.
The thinking was that with enough of these automatic corrections the dog would quickly learn it was in his best interest to keep an eye on you so he could anticipate your movements and stick with you in the turn, thereby beating the correction.
Never mind the fact that you have not set up a method of communication between you and your dog so he could learn what your signal would be to warn him that a turn was about to happen.
This is a very effective way to train a dog. When I first started training I used it on more dogs than I care the think about. The fact is this is also very unfair form of training.
A much better method of training would be to motivate the dog with the possibility of a food reward, or a toy reward, or handler praise to want to stay with the handler during heeling.
The automatic correction is still commonly used today in protection training dogs. When dogs are sent to a standing still helper and expected to bark (not bite) at the helper, many trainers administer an automatic correction as the dog approaches the helper. Just to remind the dog that his job is to bark, not bite.
In my opinion this is backward thinking.
It is a much better idea to allow mistakes to happen, give a “NO” correction followed by a leash/remote trainer correction and then take the dog back to the point where the exercise started and repeat the exercise. Let the dog figure out that you are giving him another chance to do it right or to do it wrong. If his choice is to again be disobedient then the level of correction the second time around needs to be increased significantly.
I always tell people that the role of the trainer is to make things very clear to our dogs. Mistakes must be allowed to happen. They are an important part of dog training. When mistakes do happen the handler must make it very clear to the dog that he screwed up. This is accomplished with a “NO” command followed (if necessary) by a second correction.
Automatic corrections can be clear but they are also unfair to the dog which goes against my philosophy of dog training.
 
Escape Training Corrections with a Remote Collar
When remote trainers were first developed in the 1970#%92s Tri-Tonics ( a leading manufacturer of remote trainers) hired professional trainers to help develop and promote a method of training for electric collars. They came up with what is labeled “escape training (ET).” This method of training is very effective and still used by many professional trainers today.
ET was initially used by the field trial trainers but over the years has migrated into police service dog training, Schutzhund training, and even into pet training. The training DVD that comes with Innotek collars used ET methods.
I want to make it clear from the beginning that even though ET is effective I am not a fan of this method of training. With this said I do my best to explain it.
In the simplest form of ET the trainer gives a command and at the same moment in time he stimulates (stem) the dog with the remote trainer. The dog gets continuous stem from the collar until it begins to comply. At which point the handler stops the stem. In essence the dog learns how to turn off the stem by complying with the command. When the dog begins to understand trainers will tell you that it will perform an exercise faster because it tries to beat the stem.
The fact is ET is very close to automatic corrections with the difference being that in automatic corrections the correction comes at some point in the middle of an exercise where as in ET the correction comes at the exact same moment the command is given.
There is a misconception from the general public that a remote trainer shocks a dog and causes pain. When used properly this most definitely is not true.
Every dog is different and each dog needs to go through a short testing phase to determine what level of stem to use in training. For simplicity sake I will categorize stem levels as low, medium and high (even though some collars have digital read outs and number their stem levels).
The vast majority of dogs will have an appropriate reaction (I.e. something between a blink of the eye to a very slight jerk of the neck) between the upper end of the low range to the mid-medium range of stem. At these levels the sensation is more of a strong tingle. So with this said I am not against ET because it is painful to the dog. The fact is when used properly it is not. I am against ET because I don#%92t agree with the concept of correcting a dog before I give it a chance to comply with a command.
I would rather add speed to a exercise by motivating a dog to want to perform faster because he gets something he likes (I.e. food, a toy, or praise) and not because he is trying to beat the stimulation (a correction) from an e-collar.
ET trainers will tell you that their goal is to eliminate the need for the stem by eventually delaying the stem when they see the dog performing with speed. This does not change the fundamental difference in the concept of how this training is put together. In my opinion this method of training is not fair for the dog. There are many who will disagree with me about this and that is their right to do so.
In my opinion remote trainers can and should be used in the same manner as a leash and collar. The dog must go through a learning phase for an exercise. In the distraction phase where the dog does not comply because the distraction is too high, it is given a “NO” correction followed by a stem from the collar. In the beginning this is always done on leash.
My goal with an e-collar is no different than my basic goal in training with a leash and collar. I want the dog to follow a voice command and I want him to know that should he refuse to comply after a voice correction I can reach out and touch him with a correction from a remote trainer. This is very clear to a dog.
ET trainers will also tell you that their training is also very clear to the dog and they are right. It is clear. But it does nothing to build the bond between the dog and owner. How can it? The dog is receiving a correction at the moment the command is given. This is why I consider ET old school dog training.

I agree 200% with Mic's post as well. I am in a grey zone with them and although I use them on my dogs...I am a different circumstance. I have one dog that has a lot of mental disorders and if I didn't use the e-collar I would have to be jumping across the room every second to correct or keep her in a crate when I cannot attend to her. Now while I suggest this to people who are training their new dog...trust me when I say she is "special" and will spend the rest of her life forgetting basic commands and attacking my other dog and anything else in her way....and the list goes on. Without getting into great detail about her mental state and justification as to why I chose this method it is the right one for her and the right one for me. I was told by every behaviourist for years that she would have to be put down and there was nothing I could do. But I found something. I personally train her on the vibration and use it as an irritant instead of hurting her which they can potentially do if used incorrectly.
 
You need to determine what is right for you and your dog.
 
There are all kinds of opinions out there on all kinds of training methods. Just like everyone has a method to raise a child but no method is always 100% effective for every child. You need to adapt to the child and find a way to raise them that suits they way they are. I think dogs are the same concept...that there is no one way to train every dog and some need certain things while others need others.
 
Good luck!

Just a reminder, folks...this is a 6 month old puppy!!!!!
I would hate the OP to get sidetracked by your lengthy, if excellent, explanations of correction training.  I still maintain that the greater likelihood is that we have a pushy pup on our hands, not an aggressive dog.  I would advise the OP to go to a training class so that both dog and handler can learn to communicate with one another, and so that the pup will not be saddled with a label that may not be accurate. 
In answer to the idea that the trainer might be trying to frighten you into letting her work with this dog, IMHO that would be the height of unethical behavior, but it has been known to happen. 
If your pup was barking and lunging at a stranger in your home who was, in effect, taunting her, then she was not altogether unjustified perhaps.  If she is putting holes into other dogs and humans, then you do have a problem (I am not talking about the little scratches we sometimes get when those tiny sharp puppy teeth accidentally hit us).

Where are you in upstate NY?  I'm in the Syracuse area and I just found a good behaviorist.  This is her website:

http://www.mypethasissues.com

If it is dominance aggression I have seen too many cases to count where an electric collar has successfully changed the behaviour.

 
Can you trainers and behaviorists out there help me to understand how this doesn't escalate aggressiveness - I might be willing to try this out with my aggressive pooch, but I'm afraid the pulse/stem of the ecollar will make him more aggressive (like a pinch collar did - he got a correction from a trainer who recommended one, and Gandolf bit the trainer!).

I use ecollars to proof off leash work, and the instruction booklet that came with the collars strongly warns against using the collar to "correct" aggression. I doubt they would be very effective against fear biting or any type of real aggression; probably make it worse.
 
 
Anyway, we aren't talking about aggression per se. We're talking about a bratty puppy going through adolescence. He's learned if he snaps at people they let him get his own way. Some firm no-nonsense NILIF should fix the problem. The owner needs to take charge and stop rewarding this dog's pushy behavior. I prefer to use non-confrontational methods because it's scary and unsafe to actually provoke a dog into biting; even a little dog can take off your nose in a milisecond. Best to gradually up the ante with dogs. Dog bites if you try to clip the nails? well, reward for just touching the feet. Then gradually increase the difficulty. However, if you do provoke an incident, do not back down. I remember one horrible day I ended up with my entire arm inside the gullet of a adolescent great dane who decided to try to snatch a treat from me rather than sit to earn it. He was NOT being rewarded for that behavior. I was very determined to keep hold of that treat and get it out of his mouth. I guess having an arm rammed into your throat  to get a treat back is an aversive correction.

LOL, I've also dug things out of my dogs' mouths when they were grabby with me. Of course, my arm doesn't fit down their throats, LOL. The other day, I dropped a small peice of garlic bread and before I could say "leave it", Emma got the bread. I told her to stop, picked her up, said "leave it" and pulled what she'd started to swallow out. Gross, but... better than inducing vomiting or having seizures, though....

She DID get a treat for allowing me to pry the bread out of her throat.

I am not  a trainer nor behaviorist.  That said - while I believe e-collars can be an effective training tool I would carefully evaluate any program using one.  The two links below show what can happen if punishment is not used correctly - it can escalate the aggression. 
 
[linkhttp://www.flyingdogpress.com/bonesexcerpt.html]http://www.flyingdogpress.com/bonesexcerpt.html[/link]
 
[linkhttp://clickertraining.com/training/dogs/clicktocalm/index.htm?loaditem=click_to_calm_samples&itemnumber=2]http://clickertraining.com/training/dogs/clicktocalm/index.htm?loaditem=click_to_calm_samples&itemnumber=2[/link]  click on the left to read an excerpt
 
I am not trying to alarm you but i think there are better methods that may be available to you and would investigate alternatives before giving this trainer the go ahead.  Your pup is only 8 months old - she is not hard wired and can learn.

Good luck to you and your pup is a precious cutie!
 

In my many years (25+) of training dogs, I've run into 3 or 4 aggressive puppies - truly aggressive puppies.  You can't believe you are seeing it as they are (you feel) too young.  However, it does happen.
 
One of my friends has a Bolognese - she brought her to me at 3 months and I warned her the dog would eventually bite as it had a bad temperament - my friend did not work with her as she should have and now the dog is on a lead in the house so that she can grab her if anyone comes over. The dog is unhappy and growls a lot of the time  - she has bitten my friend - she is extremely nasty. 
 
Some of this was brought on by lack of socialization and letting her get away with minor aggression when she was a pup - so, please whatever you do - find someone to work with you to fix this right away.  I'm surprised that she is mainly Havanese and is aggressive - most of them are very nice dogs - Lhasas are another story[:'(]
 
Be careful - but don't let her get away with stopping you from cleaning her, feeding her, taking toys away, etc.  She is on the way to becoming a tyrant!
 
Dianeg

Teach your pup to "trade" for items you want (continuing to simply take things out of some puppy's mouths will increase the possibility of their becoming resource guarders).  Spread some cheese whiz or peanut butter on the front of your fridge for her to lap while you get her used to being touched or brushed.  Get a copy of "Little Dogs - Training Your Pint-Sized Companion" by Deb Wood, or find a training class here:
[linkhttp://www.ccpdt.com]www.ccpdt.com[/link]
[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com]www.clickertraining.com[/link]
If you are worried about guarding - get "Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" by Jean Donaldson.
You need to learn how to assert control over your puppy in a *nice way* that the puppy can understand, but you need to be diligent with a pushy pup. 
In one of my classes, I met a Golden Retriever pup much like yours not long ago.  I was worried, because the owner had two kids under age 10!  But, after she finished class, she signed up again and kept coming, and she did everything we recommended. This dog is doing fine in that home, thank goodness.  Hopefully, yours can, too.