Leash Reactivity revisited...

Chewbacca, you're not hijacking at all.  In fact you have brought up some good points.  I like that your behaviorist is working up to desensitizing her to one dog-while that dog isn't even paying attention.  Also the toy as a distraction. 

I don't know if the toy method would work for us because Gaia also has a history of resource guarding.  (If I ever meet the people that raised her I think I'd have alot of not so nice things to say to them.)  When she came to me she had resource guarding issues, leash reactivity, and she had some fear based aggressiveness too-including displaced aggression-which means I got bitten a dozen times or so.  The resource guarding is still there in tiny little body language demonstrations-but I probably could feed both dogs together without a problem (I won't!)

So we're down to the hardest thing to get a grip on-the reactivity/dog aggression.  It's hard to get a handle on because she's very unpredictable.  There have been times when I've become so exasperated I've wanted to make the phone call to a couple of friends of mine and re-home her.  

This breed, in particular, is very aware of it's surroundings-she will even react if she sees a person that normally walks his/her dog, even if the dog isn't with them.  She's one crazy girl that's for sure.  We may have to try some of the homeopathic calming meds before going on walks, the easy walk harness and some of the methods everyone's been discussing.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Does any one use Turid Rugaas' loose leash method? I'm just reading about it. It sounds like it's similar to building a reliable recall ... in this case, you train a "follow me" sound (like clicking your tongue) as a trigger for responding to your movements, then you be a tree when they pull on the leash, then make the sound to have them move towards you, reward and keep moving, etc.

I'm wondering if being focused on performing like that helps to minimize their obsession with other dogs. Has anyone had success with that?

Rugaas also says that if the dog takes your treat and darts, you can pause and praise before giving the treat so they have to stick around longer, up the wait time in small increments.

Like chewbecca and others, my dog has bigger issues that just the leash. Angelique, good point, the click to calm info is spot on for many of us with anxious dogs. I get a little swimmy in the head with complex problems like this (they're fun to tackle!). At this point I'm looking at:

careful dog socialization + loose leash training + relationship/trust building + opportunities for success (confidence building) + good exercise = goodbye leash reactivity

That was another thing I forgot to add: Ella's reactivity towards my trainer's dog goes WAY down when we actually are able to move around with Ella. See, once the trainer's dog makes it through the rally obedience course, it's then our turn to take Ella through it. When we're doing that, Ella has work to focus on. And believe me, she is a WORKING dog. I told my trainer, that perhaps we should make the situation with her dog a bit more real by making Ella move around the room with us while her dog is present. Because, on walks, that is what is really going to be happening. We're going to be walking Ella and the other leashed dog will be walking to. THAT'S what Ella needs to adjust to, in my opinion.

BTW, does anybody know how their leash reactive dogs behave when the owners are NOT around? I know my guy is just like any other dog when he's at the vet's. He barks at the other dogs but nothing out of the ordinary for what I'm told, although, when he's at the vet's, even if I'm there he's a different dog, not scared at all, in fact he loves it there, just , different.

ORIGINAL: eley

BTW, does anybody know how their leash reactive dogs behave when the owners are NOT around? I know my guy is just like any other dog when he's at the vet's. He barks at the other dogs but nothing out of the ordinary for what I'm told, although, when he's at the vet's, even if I'm there he's a different dog, not scared at all, in fact he loves it there, just , different.

That's Ella, as far as I know.

ORIGINAL: eley
BTW, does anybody know how their leash reactive dogs behave when the owners are NOT around?

I suspected my dog's problems were all me. But a trainer tested her out with other dogs, without me there, and she's still reactive. So, poor dear, it's her own anxiety. The leash was just the tip of the iceberg, and I'm glad it made me too nervous to try socializing her on my own, because I certainly wouldn't have known how to handle it.

We're teaching Ixa, slowly, and with 1-3 dogs at a time, how to simply be calm, to sniff and get sniffed. She gets lots of rewards for being non-reactive when her nose is 3" away form another dog's. So far she can sniff a non-reactive dog pretty well, and getting sniffed is getting better.

Apparently Ixa never learned this stuff. She has no idea how to communicate with other dogs, except to growl and snap. She'll play bite a dog that has no interest, and get rightly growled at in response.

Bottom line is, the energetic girl does want to play! I just have to teach her how. I had worried that the ACD/Chow parts of her were making her anti-dog, but not so, not so at all.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

I'm wondering if being focused on performing like that helps to minimize their obsession with other dogs. Has anyone had success with that?

I actually use the CM walk as a "focus on task" and "follow the leader" exercise.

I also work on the dog learning to ignore distractions, keep moving, and not expect to greet or leave the area when another dog enters the picture. I do not allow nose to nose greetings with any dogs to try and get a dog socialized either. The name of the game is focus on task, follow the leader, and ignore all distractions, including other dogs.

One of the best exercises in addition to this is walking parallel with a stable dog who is already trained to ignore. I use this a lot. My dog is a great helper in this area. The dogs are not allowed to greet, but the two humans carry on a casual conversation while walking with the dogs. It's amazing how well this works. I've taken a dog who was lounging and barking at my dog before I even took her out of my car, to playing with her like an old friend within fifteen minutes...this was an easy case though.

No treats, toys, clickers, or distracting techniques are used during these specific walking sessions. This is based an a social learning and leadership principle.

This also has to do with working on the owner's leadership skills, demeanor, confidence and teaching them how to set a boundary both verbally and with the collar and leash. The owner also learns how to contain and control their dog in emergency situations and stop a "launch" before it escalates.

There is a lot more to this, but I would be writing all day to put down everything and it is not something that can help much over the net because it needs to be shown in person.

Anyway, this is what I personally use. The worse dog I've personally dealt with took about four days to settle down and learn to ignore.

It seems that it's rather easy to throw any dog "off balance" by a sudden attack at a doggy park or an off-leash neighbor's dog, and heighten their reactivity towards other dogs. We try hard to correct that, of course. But, a part of me thinks that sometimes it's OK to let your dog be a dog and bark at an approaching doggy. It's not natural for canines to play with dogs/wolves from neighboring packs... Humans do try to breed that trait out of them and we've been doing quite good since domestication. Bit still, part of me thinks, we shouldn't get too upset that our doggy doesn't want to be friends with everybody. That's Disney's view on dogs...

Mason  has some type of reactivity going on; but I haven't really pinpointed what it is.  Maybe you guys can give me your insight.

He appears to be fine around other dogs when he is off leash and able to "get to them".  The president of our rescue has kept him for me on a long weekend and she had him in her backyard with her 4 Shepherds - 2 males and 2 females - all at least 5 years old and up (Mason is less than 2).  He had a great time and exhibited good doggy manners; whenever he got too zealous for one of the other Shepherds, they would give him a growl or air snap and he would back off and go play with someone else.

However, if he is indoors near a window or inside of our fence (split rail with wire), and sees a dog walking by or the dogs in the  outdoor kennel next door start barking (we're getting better with that one), he goes bezerk!  The first Obedience Class was awful; [] lunging and barking and panting excessively.  By the end of class, he was much better, but still extremely reactive to dogs that he sees or hears if they're too close in our neighborhood.

I originally thought he may be DA, but apparently not - unless it's just select dogs.  The dogs next door are un-neutered and there was one in class that he reacted to and he was an un-neutered 11 month Mastiff. 

Maybe this is Leash Reactivity combined with Barrier Aggression - or maybe they go hand in hand?  [8|]  I often have to cover his crate with a sheet because he can see out our sliding glass door and will just suddenly "go off" sometimes when he sees something out there.  He's not as bad when I'm out in the yard with him unless there is an approaching pedestrian with a dog or the one specific neighbor's dogs start barking.  He also does this from inside the vehicle when we are in a parking lot or someplace with a lot of activity - we've been doing short day trips on the weekend to attempt to desensitize this also.[]

The "watch" exercise (From Fiesty Fido) is working for us.  We've made great progress, but still aren't where I'd like to be with it yet.  There are still times that he is just too fixated and we have to go back inside to keep him from getting worked up.

I really  don't think he wants to fight the other dogs (although I'm not willing to find out), as much as he wants to get at them....[8|]

Are there other symptoms or "tests" to determine whether this is Leash Reactivity or if something else is going on - like Dog Aggression?

We had a good dog day yesterday, with one bummer.

Our final obedience class was held at a rather nice dog park (good people, good dogs). Ixa did a great job leash walking outside the fence, near other dogs, and even right up against the fence! She even did a bunch of nice sniffing though the fence! She was able to sit, take treats, etc. Ixa did some hello/play barking that the teacher said I shouldn't correct, and by the end of the day, some aggressive barking the teacher said I should correct for.

After class, Ixa and a puppy were sniffing each other and the teacher thought it looked fine, so she had us loosen up the leashes so they could interact. Seemed fine till the pup rolled on its back, and Ixa, standing over her, gave a hot nip on her belly. No broken skin, but I didn't like how aggressive it was.

I don't know if that *means* anything in terms of her reactivity/aggression, maybe the wiggly puppy was just too much for her. I do think that was pushing it, and she needs more sniff and calm-dog time before the *play* is encouraged. OTOH, if she were a puppy, I imagine I'd just be letting it go, and other dogs would teach her about limits .... hmmm.

Before class we had a nice hike on the long lead. Even with all bounteous yummy distractions that nature has to offer, Ixa and I have really *gotten it* regarding cues and behaviors on the long lead! She trots around happily; when she's approaching end of lead I say "easy", she eases up. Good girl!

ORIGINAL: Angelique

One of the best exercises in addition to this is walking parallel with a stable dog who is already trained to ignore.

I'm having a hard time finding a non-reactive dog to try this with her. My friends' dogs are all nutty [&:].
I read that Cesar Milan's moving his So. Central DPC, but do you know if his pack still available for visits?

I'm happy to teach Ixa whatever I can, but I agree, I'd like her to be learning things from dogs, too. She had a lot of respect (?) for the working dogs when I took her to try out herding, but most of the nutty neighborhood/obedience class dogs and puppies drive her nuts.

I'm glad someone started this thread because I've been wondering if Max has just a tiny bit of LA, a tiny bit of LR or just a "quirk."  He's absolutely fine with other dogs we meet on walks ... as long as the dogs can stop to greet.  I only have to remind him "small dog, no jumping" so he doesn't accidentally overpower a tiny one. But if the other dog whizzes right past without stopping like they do when they're with a biker or a jogger, Max leaps and growls like a lunatic. It's almost like he takes it personally that the other dog didn't stop to say "Hi" to  him.  Anyone know what that's about?
 
Joyce

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: Angelique

One of the best exercises in addition to this is walking parallel with a stable dog who is already trained to ignore.

I'm having a hard time finding a non-reactive dog to try this with her. My friends' dogs are all nutty [&:].
I read that Cesar Milan's moving his So. Central DPC, but do you know if his pack still available for visits?

I'm happy to teach Ixa whatever I can, but I agree, I'd like her to be learning things from dogs, too. She had a lot of respect (?) for the working dogs when I took her to try out herding, but most of the nutty neighborhood/obedience class dogs and puppies drive her nuts.

 
I don't know what Cesar will eventually offer at his new center. I do know he is far too busy to work much at the client level at this point with all of the transition going on. I get impatient over the fact he does not have a school or mentoring program yet.
 
There's a guy named Linn Boyke (trained by Cesar) who has taken over his client requests locally and offers seminars and shadow programs.
 
The International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP) is the best place to look for someone in your area who incorporates both training and some of Cesar's philosophies. The IACP is currently working on some sort of certification for this type of work from what I understand. Here's a link to their site:
 
[linkhttp://www.dogpro.org/]www.dogpro.org/[/link]
 
Yes, it is hard to find someone who can help you by using their own "stable" dog as a good influence. I do a walking group in the summer for folks who want to work on this. Sometimes even a local dog walker can give you some pointers.
 
I agree with the fact that many working dog groups are very helpful. Any chance someone from your former group might be able to help?
 
On a side note, I find teaching someone to get a good feel for using the collar and leash with a dog is very much like teaching someone to use a good hands with the bit and reins on a horse. It takes practice and should be taught in person. IMO
 
 
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I don't know what Cesar will eventually offer at his new center. I do know he is far too busy to work much at the client level at this point with all of the transition going on. I get impatient over the fact he does not have a school or mentoring program yet.

 
His dog psychology center is going to move to a 42 acre facility in Santa Clarita California (north of L.A.), he does not work with regular clients now but he has assistants that can help regular people in need
 
Now back to OT
 
The walk next to a non-dog-aggressive dog is a great idea, a dog that it does not matter if the WW3 is taking place [], hard to find but thats one possibility
 
I also applied the techniques Angelique is talking about, it toke 5 minutes to have the dog sorrounded by 5 or 6 other dogs (that were balanced), the owner saw that and could not believe that her dog was not attacking them, and no, the dog was not "shuted down" he was a little bit nervous because he never was in a situation like that before and sometimes he was showing his teeth to them but nothing else
 
Oh well Ed does not like those techniques anyway []
 
 
ps. i would like to comment about the "my neck hurts" idea:
 
The dog does not think "if i see the dog my neck hurts, i hate dogs" because he knows the owner is holding the leash, he knows what and who is causing the correction, is not like he thinks the other dog is operating a remote controlled device that produces "pain" hehe, i guess the dog actually thinks "my owner does not like when i see other dog so i wont, the corrections stop when i stop looking at the dog, i'm not Eisntein to know what i should not do"

ps. i would like to comment about the "my neck hurts" idea:

The dog does not think "if i see the dog my neck hurts, i hate dogs" because he knows the owner is holding the leash, he knows what and who is causing the correction, is not like he thinks the other dog is operating a remote controlled device that produces "pain" hehe, i guess the dog actually thinks "my owner does not like when i see other dog so i wont, the corrections stop when i stop looking at the dog, i'm not Eisntein to know what i should not do"

 
Really?
 
That's interesting to know.  I'll tell Gaia that.
 
In all seriousness, if this were true, why is it that her reactivity won't escalate if I'm holding her collar from the bottom?
 
Oh and there is no leash correction on my part.  I hold position or keep moving on.
 
In fact, eley's suggestion of paying more attention to Xerxes has worked wonders in the 2 days I've been following it.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Really?

That's interesting to know.  I'll tell Gaia that.

Say hi to her from me then []

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

In all seriousness, if this were true, why is it that her reactivity won't escalate if I'm holding her collar from the bottom?

Oh and there is no leash correction on my part.  I hold position or keep moving on.

In fact, eley's suggestion of paying more attention to Xerxes has worked wonders in the 2 days I've been following it.

 

We have to realize that nobody here was saying that other techniques wont work, Angelique and I are only saying how do we handle the situation, if you found another way thats great, if it works for you thats awesome, i hope it comes a day where you dont have to do anything at all to walk with your dog []