Leash Reactivity revisited...

So for every step we've been taking past a certain point, it seems that we go backwards when one of the two scenarios unfold. It's very disheartening. Distraction won't help when she's in full reaction mode. She'll look at me long enough to grab the treat and swallow it and then she's back to reactivity.

Xerxes, I am not pro on that, but aren't you rewarding your dog when she is aggressive?

It's funny because yesterday we avoided a pittie mix on the path and the owner looked at me like I was a jerk-I think she thought I was trying to avoid her pittie...

My dog is not neutered, and while he is a gentleman with the ladies he will quickly react to those males who refuse to acknowledge his authority - he ALWAYS has to be a top dog.
It's impossible to avoid dogs when you live in a city, in an apartment complex downtown; on regular bases, we have to face male dogs in elevators, etc.
If I am tense, waiting to see what *might* happen, thinking about what other owners might think of me and my dog - that just makes it all worse. Some of the owners around here give us dirty looks, and that used to bother me. But now, I've learned to say - the hell with you. I am totally relaxed, I am just there to enjoy my walk, whatever happens happens, I'll watch out for him and I'll react when it comes to it. It was SO hard for me in the beginning. It's a meditation of sorts. But, I found it to be AMAZING - it makes my dog more focused on me during our walks, he is not in that 'look out' mode anymore...

Another KEY thing is, while your dog is in full crazy mode (for lack of a better term), do NOTHING, keep walking, don't look at her, don't talk to her, show no signs of frustration (really easy right?)...

Yes! This is what I try to do, and it works! I used to try to communicate with him vocally- Hey, Stop it, etc. Wasn't successful... Being quiet and relaxed, and just continuing to walk works for me. Sometimes, he'd start "Woooo", but he'd stop right in the middle of it, an the end part "of" would just be quiet, like - OK, fine, I suppose, I'll just continue walking. I might calmly move him into position where I want him to be, and walk at my regular pace.
Also, what I used to think *wasn't angry* actually was... deep inside it was a tense, slow-brewing angry response. Hard to explain, but I've learned to completely let go the anger. And again, that makes a huge difference.

Also, I've noticed that my dog doesn't care about ANYTHING when he is in a working mode (he comes form working lines). So, sometimes, when I see our neighbor's big shaggy male dog who Jack tries to compete with, I give him command to find something. So there he goes, nose down, sniffing, I follow. When he gets distracted I repeat the command, and I try to pretend like I am into it - like "C'mon we are looking for a stick". So, maybe you can use your dog's natural instincts to engage him... And if **** happens, so what? You'll deal with it.

TinaK:  No I'm not rewarding her for reacting, I am rewarding her when her attention is on me.  Subtle difference.  She'll look at me for a moment and sit.  That's when the reward comes. 
 
Also if she elects to keep her attention on me as I begin feeding her but before she has a chance to react. 
 
As far as avoiding the other dog:  If I have a chance to avoid the confrontation I will.  I don't make a scene out of it, I am calm doing it.  Now if this had been 6 or 7 months ago I might have been a bit less than calm while doing it.  But like I said I've been doing this with her for 6 months or so. 
 
When I first got her she would react to any dog within visual acuity: and with a sighthound that's quite a bit aways.  Now the dog has to be within 50 feet or closer.  I'd say that's a step in the right direction.
 
 

I am not pro on that, but aren't you rewarding your dog when she is aggressive?

 
There's one school of thought that says that if you can get the dog to face you, and treat them as the distraction (other dog) goes its own way, that you are actually classically conditioning your dog to the idea that the appearance of another dog means that something good will happen for them.
It's important not to believe that you have no recourse in tight areas, or when you are surprised on the trail. Avoid narrow spaces, and look for the least distracting area at first, but if you are surprised, it's fine to quickly go the other way, or move to the side (well off the trail) and get out the garlic roast beef, liverwurst, or salmon brownies.  Feed, feed, feed while your dog watches you, not the distraction. If the dog can't take food, you are too close and MUST move farther away, then feed, feed, feed.

Feed, feed, feed while your dog watches you, not the distraction.

 
Use tiny, tiny pieces of food.  Otherwise, you will run out of food or the dog will get full.  (Labs almost never get full.  []  It is OK to feed most or all of a dog's normal daily food during these exercises.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs If the dog can't take food, you are too close and MUST move farther away, then feed, feed, feed.

 
I agree completely... It took me a while to figure out the distance Dodger had to be from a distraction without reacting but when I finally did, we made fast progress...  I'd often sit at the window with Dodger and whenever a dog would walk by, I'd say "Look at the PUPPY"  and he'd get almost consant treats for ointing his muzzle toward the dog without reacting and then looking up at me.  I'd do the same in the car.  Only when  "Look at the PUPPY" was ingrained in Dodger's brain as wondefully rewarding time did  I start using it outside and with dogs in "close" proximity. In other words, I trained a hrase that elicited a happy response, regardless of what was going on in his environment.  (I am very much like Glenda and use motivating or distracting phrasesa lot!)
A couple of things that I did in a bind when a dog would pop out of nowhere was say "Where's the kitty" - Dodger loves cats and would be so excited and so busy looking for a kitty that he'd have no time to react... Another thing that worked was to ut Dodger in training mode - I found that if I said "go touch the puppy" BOTH of us would approach the scenario with a different attitude.  I'd often put Dodger through a series of basic tricks whenever we say a dog because we'd both be preoccupied - and Dodger was more enthusiastic about doing tricks because they are regularly rewarded[] 
 
With regards to Gaia taking the treat and going back into full reactivity mode - I'd rather not give her the treat at all since she's obviously not being rewarded for calm behaviour.  I think in RRR, Leslie Nelson says something like "we should never be fast food" - which is allowing the dog to swallow the treat immediately and buzz off...  I never thought that it could make such a difference but I found that if I let Dodger have a tiny nibble on the treat (often so little that he didn't get anything) that he was much more focused (okay DETERMINED) to get the treat... It kept him engaged. 

One thing I've found helpful for my little stinker is sticky treats. As gross as it is, squishing a big piece of cheese or meatloaf or something like that in between my fingers means he has to be really occupied in licking it up, so he's focusing on getting the last traces of the food from in between my (often pinched) fingers. Of course this won't work for everyone, but for us it's been really helpful! Just don't ask me to shake hands afterwards... [8|]

Honestly, I think many of the folks who are having the problems mentioned in this thread should go to the clicker section and check out some of the "Click to Calm" threads.

It seems to be working very well for Ron, Spiritdogs is willing to give her expertise, and what have you got to lose?

I tend to agree with TinaK and use a more Cesar type philosophy. But it's not the only philosophy.

I'd really like to hear some success stories! []

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Honestly, I think many of the folks who are have the problems mentioned in this thread should go to the clicker section and check out some of the "Click to Calm" threads.

It seems to be working very well for Ron, Spiritdogs is willing to give her expertise, and what have you got to loose?

I tend to agree with TinaK and use a more Cesar type philosophy. But it's not the only philosophy.

I'd really like to hear some success stories! []

I read click to calm, and scaredy dog, they are both basically the same idea with a couple of differences in how they approach it and what the books themselves describe, one (click) is more a recipie book, where as scaredy dog has a little bit more theory behind it and a lot less step by step. In the end I sought the advice of a behaviourist, the program we're working on is based around the same principle as the other two, but trimmed and adjusted for my dog as we go, hence the behaviourist. Both are great books though.

I think what I got the most from Sacredy Dog, is the understanding of stress and what it can do to a dog, and how to manage it.

I am a firm believer now in routine de-stress times for a dog.

 It has done wonders for mine.

Most of you here know that Ella is DA. I mean, for as best as me or my trainer can determine. She might be dog selective, but I'm not really willing to find that out.

I know leash reactivity and/or aggression is different than a dog being DA, but my dog STILL reacts when she's on leash and another dog is around.

We have been working and working AND working with her on this. We KNOW that avoiding dogs on walks is NOT going to happen; it is NOT completely avoidable at all times. We also know that, chances are, if she doesn't like other dogs, we're not going to be able to force her to like other dogs.
My trainer is a positive trainer/behavior consultant. She brings her dog into the training room when we're there (her dog is on leash). We have built up to her dog coming in and working some rally obedience while we stand in the corner of the room, away from her dog, and try to get Ella to focus on us and ignore her dog. Um...Ella's behavior has gone from at first, lunging, growling and aggressively barking to now she does more of a whining. But she gets herself ALL worked up to a point where, NO TREATS at all, no "watch me" command will work on getting her to focus on us for a while, and her eyes get bloodshot and her ears get red. My trainer does NOT want me to get on the floor to Ella's level to calm her, she insists that we stand up straight and appear confident. Ella is real barky around other dogs, obviously, as I've stated. She'll just bark and bark and bark. And she's normally NOT a barker. IF the trainer's dog is laying down and NOT looking at Ella, Ella calms down. But when my trainer's dog starts working the rally obedience and is moving, Ella is freaking out.
But the only way for me to get Ella's attention IS to get down on her level and get in her face and talk calmly to her, while Ben holds her back.
It's getting a little bit better, but we think a lot of that has to do with the fact that Ella is getting used to my trainer's dog, because she brought in a different dog this past session and Ella really checked out of reality (and that's what I call it when NOTHING distracts her from another dog). I mean, even after the trainer took her dog out of the room and back into her house, Ella STILL wouldn't take any treats from us. She wasn't barking or lunging, she just wouldn't take any treats from us. It's like she was genuinely upset even after the other dog was removed.

Before her incident with the boxer, I could walk her and if we saw another leashed dog on our walk, she might look at the dog, but she kept walking. Now she tries to turn her entire body around and pulls like mad to get at the other dog. No matter how nonchalant I treat the situation. I really HATE to admit this because of everything that I've read that contradicts this, but I honestly think something has changed with her towards other dogs since the incident with the boxer.

So, what do I do?

Ed, I'm sorry, I don't in anyway mean to hijack your thread. But I kind of feel like I'm in the same boat as you, but my dog, I'm pretty sure, is full blown DA, on leash or not. But she STILL reacts to dogs on leash, this is still on topic, you know?[]

Oh! I forgot to add, and this may not be important, but one time Ella was just barking and barking at the trainer's dog and even my trainer was having a hard time getting her to stop. I had brought her cuz ball with her bag of goodies and asked if I could take it out to see how she responded. See, we weren't sure if that would make her react worse to the other dog or what it would do.

I pulled out that ball and showed Ella and...INSTANT change. My dog grabbed her ball, twirled it around in her mouth, chomped on it a few times, forgot about the dog that was 4-5 ft. in front of her, laid down with her ball next to her, and shut up.
And didn't even so much as look at the trainer's dog.

My trainer said something to the effect that the ball would be good in emergeny situations, but ONLY in a real emergency because...something about how you can keep giving a dog treats, but once you give a toy, the dog has the toy and it's not an on-going distraction from the situation...or something like that. Make sense?

Does any one use Turid Rugaas' loose leash method? I'm just reading about it. It sounds like it's similar to building a reliable recall ... in this case, you train a "follow me" sound (like clicking your tongue) as a trigger for responding to your movements, then you be a tree when they pull on the leash, then make the sound to have them move towards you, reward and keep moving, etc.

I'm wondering if being focused on performing like that helps to minimize their obsession with other dogs. Has anyone had success with that?

Rugaas also says that if the dog takes your treat and darts, you can pause and praise before giving the treat so they have to stick around longer, up the wait time in small increments.

Like chewbecca and others, my dog has bigger issues that just the leash. Angelique, good point, the click to calm info is spot on for many of us with anxious dogs. I get a little swimmy in the head with complex problems like this (they're fun to tackle!). At this point I'm looking at:

careful dog socialization + loose leash training + relationship/trust building + opportunities for success (confidence building) + good exercise = goodbye leash reactivity

What happened with the boxer? I usually read your posts but I don't recall this one.

Mine went reactive after being attacked on leash....by a loose dog of course.  The owner just allowed it to lay up on the porch without a restraint.

So yeah, one can easily be minding their own business and some other idiot dog owner enters our lives and throws ours into the deep end.

We end up with an I'm sorry,(from idiot dog owner) a reactive dog, and a lot of work and mental meltdowns on our hands.

ORIGINAL: JM

What happened with the boxer? I usually read your posts but I don't recall this one.

It was a momentary slip on my part that caused some SERIOUS damage. I've prevented the situation from EVER happening again and I've done what I can possibly do aside from getting rid of my dog. But she made it past my knee and out the door one day and attacked a boxer that she KIND OF had a history with. There's more to the story than that, but I've already typed it out in another thread and I don't have the ability to type it out again at this time, but we took care of the situation and paid for damages.
It happened on 1/5/07, the day after her second work session with our trainer/behavior consultant. My worst fear came true so unexpectedly. And it INSTANTLY taught me a lot and changed me a lot as an owner.
And regardless of how I may be judged as an owner for posting that, I know my part and I am doing what I can and I have NOT taken the situation lightly at any time.

Oh yeah...I remember now.  But that was an accident.  Not like my situation where the dog was just allowed to lay around, no supervision, no retraints.  Nada!

Evidently, he just laid out on the porch and attacked dogs when they walked by. The owner cared squat! Acttually had the nerve to be mad at the SO for kicking the dog off of ours.

Mine has escaped before so I can't say anything about anyone else's escaping.