Leash Reactivity revisited...

Ed, when I was dealing with this with Sheba, I avoided blind corners like the plague.  And I always, always keep my eyes peeled with any of them.....so I'm gonna be the one who sees the other dog first and I am very quick to do an abrupt about face and just head back in the other direction.
 
As she progressed I'd start from a distance with "loooook at that pretty dog....look how nice he's walking for his mom/dad/whatever"  In that way I *think* that she learned that Mom isn't gonna miss a potential danger, and Mom is in total control of whatever happens to scare her.......

Glenda, I was just thinking the other day how you used to post about talking for your dogs.  I always loved how you do that and it really makes sense.  At this point I'm not sure if I want to call her attention to the other dogs, but I'll give anything a shot. 
 
It's funny because yesterday we avoided a pittie mix on the path and the owner looked at me like I was a jerk-I think she thought I was trying to avoid her pittie-when if it had been any other dog at all I would have done the same thing. 
 
Thanks!

You don't want to call her attention to the other dog right off....that's something you're going to want to build to.  And when I do an about face I often would throw back over my shoulder "My girl is reactive....but that's sure a lovely dog you've got"
 
I never shut up (big surprise, huh?) when I'm walking the dogs.

Hey, this one's right up my alley, we should have a support group or something.

Anyways, the behaviourist told us that we should limit "dog contact" as much as possible, and slowly introduce dogs in a controllled methodical manner. Evidently this is easier said than done, even more in your case for what I understand.
Have you tried and easy walk harness?

We've been walking our guy by places and at times when we know that the odds of running into another dogs are slim to none (we've had three or four encounters in the last few months). Still, in the ocassion that we HAVE had encounters we've noticed that his "recovery time" is shortening, it would be wonderful if the intensity of his fits would also reduce, but I guess you can't have it both ways.

The central part of the therapy we're doing is fairly simple, work on getting eye contact from your dog as much as possible, in as many situations/places as possible. That's the foundation for everything else that follows.

Another KEY thing is, while your dog is in full crazy mode (for lack of a better term), do NOTHING, keep walking, don't look at her, don't talk to her, show no signs of frustration (really easy right?). The second she gives you attention again go over the top with priase, treats or whatever she likes.

You walk both your dogs at the same time right? Have you ever thought about using your other dog to gain Gaia's interest? What I mean is, when she's throwing a fit, concentrate on the other guy, give him commands, let him earn treats or praise, the idea is to peak her interest. Don't know if it'll work actually, but it's worth trying.

We have an appointment with the behaviourist next week, apparently we're ready to start working with other dogs, I'll let you know how it goes.

I really think the easy walk harness helped Zeus' reactivity.  I think when he would lunge, he would feel the pain at his neck and go into full mode.

He doesn't seem to be able to lunge in the harness either.  Or keep lunging.  One attempt at a lunge and I have him moving.

Recently, we had 3 loose dogs surrounding us.  Zeus did one small lunge then followed me out of dodge....real quick like. (this is where I ntoiced that maybe he could not pull off a full lunge with me moving him while in his harness) Which means breaking a behavior chain.

Never uttered a peep.  A loose dog is his worst nightmare.  We had 3 large ones on our butt.

Also, I have taught Zeus to move away quickly.  I will not make him do the good doggy neighbor thing and allow a dog to approach, sniff, etc.

One just never knows if the sniffee decides he would make for an easy picking. and go ballistic on him.  Destroying all of my work. 

Plus, I think he now trusts me not to put him in those situations where he can be attacked, nor expect him to do things that he is not comfortable with.  I am not allowing a freak dog to ruin that.

you give my situation hope... I'm curious to know what caused your initial success. Did you use a "look at me" command when other dogs were passing. Did you correct the aggressive behavior or just move forward?
 
My dog is also fearful of people, but I've worked with him so when we go past people, runners, bikes, etc., I tell him to "look at me" and then I give him a treat for doing so.  I could  hold a steak in front of me and he wouldn't blink if another dog was coming by....

ORIGINAL: creilly

you give my situation hope... I'm curious to know what caused your initial success. Did you use a "look at me" command when other dogs were passing. Did you correct the aggressive behavior or just move forward?

My dog is also fearful of people, but I've worked with him so when we go past people, runners, bikes, etc., I tell him to "look at me" and then I give him a treat for doing so.  I could  hold a steak in front of me and he wouldn't blink if another dog was coming by....

 
The first line of your post actually brought tears to my eyes.  I know what it's like to feel that it's hopeless and I've been working on this for gosh over 6 months now.  Gaia is a rescue and she personifies the meaning of "bitch."  She is super serious almost all the time.  She plays very little (maybe 20 minutes/day) so she sees herself as a bitch with a job:  protect her pack, her apartment and sound the alarm when something's amiss.
 
The first thing I tried was the "look at me" command.  It gave me limited success.  The reason being...if I want her to continue on looking at me, I have to be fast moving or do something so over the top that I'm incredibly interesting and I'm not that creative, nor that fast. []
 
We tried the look at me with treats.  She's got a sensitive stomach so that got me a reactive dog with the runs.  Again, not much fun there.
 
Now we're on to the homemade jerky and she's doing fine with that.  I just run out of it too soon, not to mention that the other dog (nicknamed Mr. Jealousy) is starting to cue on Gaia's behavior-she acts up and gets attention-so he feels like he should do it as well-for the extra attention.
 
I think trust is the most important thing, preplanning is also important and distraction combined with body blocks are yet another part of my strategy.
 
eley:  thanks for your encouragement.  I'm going to try the "ignore the behavior"  and see if that helps out at all-along with giving extra attention to Xerxes.  I'm not sure that will matter to her, but I'll try anything-if we can make any progress I'll be sure to let you know.  Also I'll try the harness too. 
 
Also thank goodness Gaia is only 42lbs, I can't imagine what it would be like with your boy.  Speaking of that, when your guy was reacting, would he do the whiney thing...whine like he wanted to go see them really badly?  If I can get Gaia to stop barking she'll whine almost in a nervous way.

Also thank goodness Gaia is only 42lbs, I can't imagine what it would be like with your boy. 

Nothing 800mg of ibuprofen, an ice pack an, a glass of scotch and 12 hours of R&R won't cure really....

Speaking of that, when your guy was reacting, would he do the whiney thing...whine like he wanted to go see them really badly?  If I can get Gaia to stop barking she'll whine almost in a nervous way.

Well, weird as it seems whining is WAY better than full on barking, the way it was explained to me, is that whining is frustration, where as depending on the tone of the barking it can be either frustration or full blown aggression. The thing is, that Fila's come from mastiffs, and bloodhounds, and for what I'm told, when bloodhounds have nothing else to do, well, they whine. My guy when in doubt, he whines, the first time we took him to the new vet, all the whining made her think she was examining a bird, imagine her surprise when she opens the door to the exam room and there's a 120 dog standing in front of her.

anywyas, with him the crazy cycle goes like this, bark/lunge, bark/whine and finally just whine.

What is it that triggers Gaia?, smell, sound or sight? that sort of makes a difference. The next step on our therapy, if I'm understanding correctly, is to go over our "keeping the dog's attention" excercises, but introducing dog-scented towels or dog sounds, get him confortable with paying attention to me with those distractions present, and eventually we move on to working with actual dogs. The behaviourist is evaluating his progress and deciding which steps we take next. I'm told that in some cases, you can skip the scent/sound stages and go directly to meeting other dogs, unless the case is OVER THE TOP severe, the you do have to divide it a little bit more.

I don't know if you were talking to me, but yeah, Zeus would vocalize when moving away.

But that pretty much disappeared with the collar.  I really think that some dogs feel at an advantage with the collar.

I know the moral of the story is not to tighten up on lead but please, how logical is that when a dog is lunging?

They tighten their own lead.  Plus, you are trying to move them away.  Whether we like it or not, or mean to, it has to be almost like punishment to them....even if we are not doing anything but trying to keep them moving.

So, maybe in the dogs mind, not only is he is fear of not being able to protect himself properly due to leash/collar/ restraints, he is going to be punished in the process.

Also, concerning the moving part.  I went with the assumption of a reaction being a flight or fight response.  So, I encouraged the flight part.  Move, man, move!

And I totally believe what helped Zeus was he began to trust me (I feel that I cannot emphasize this enough)  I begin to understand and acknowledge what his fears were, and not to over step his comfort zone.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
The reason for this post is twofold: To tell those of you with reactive dogs that setbacks occur and we need to keep on doing what we're doing-little steps forward can be amazing-but they can also be tiny.

You dear, idogger. Thanks so much for this thread, I never subscribe to threads, but I will do so with this one. Support group, yay!

I, too, can get pretty glum over setbacks with my girl. She's responding much better to the herding/working/serious dogs we've met at agility and sheepherding, but really doesn't have a lick of patience for the average city yard dogs/leash dogs we meet along our neighborhood walks. (And don't get me started on the local off-leash dogs!)

Thanks for sharing your process eley, especially the ignoring, I'll try that. I don't think any of my current behaviors have helped when she's fllipping like a salmon at the end of my leash.

Thanks for mentioning how you hold the collar underneath for calming, Xerxes, I'll try that, too.

How are your dogs when off-leash with other dogs? Only reactive on-leash? Mine (a rescue 2 months ago) has apparently never socialized with dogs. I've taken her to a doggie daycare where the trainer and I work on teaching her hoe to meet other dogs, stuff like how to sniff - "good sniff!" "good sniff!")

Yay for the little victories, Ixa's recover time is sooooo much shorter now. If we're jogging, she'll move more easily past other dogs.

Thanks for the information... It sounds like I need to get back to the basics again... for now, walk where there aren't many dogs, try super fancy treats or meat as a distraction and just continue to walk and of course reward good behavior.  I'm also going to try the flower remedy. He does whine and my trainer (#3) told me that is was anxiety. It happened more when we first got him. Sometimes he'll whine when he sees other dogs, but most of the time, his ears go up, he freezes, then starts his performance and from there will begin to back into me because of fear.  I try to continue to reflect on the positives--he knows how to walk on  a leash now, he's trained to greet people in a positive way and not growl and he's better with stangers on the street. That being said, I had a set back this morning... he never became aggressive to other dogs while in the car and this morning, he did.  I'm obviously not doing something right.  Keep up the great work on your end. Does your dog play with other dogs off leash?  I ask because I take Reilly to play with other dogs (3 maximum at a time and supervised by my trainer) off leash and it's such a great thing to see!!  

What is it that triggers Gaia?, smell, sound or sight? that sort of makes a difference

 
The short answer is yes.  All of the above.  These dogs have the predatory senses of a jackal-keen a sense of smell to die for, ears that are like gigantic antennae and very keen eyesight.  They notice everything.  If we walk by the same place twice and a twig has moved, both of them have to investigate it.  "Why did it move?  How did it get here?  Who moved it?  Wasn't it just over there?  Who's been here in the last 30 seconds? Was this twig from that tree there?  Did a squirrel do this? Squirrel, did you say squirrel?" 
 
It's amazing how my two cue on their environment in such a focused way. 
 
I think I'm going to take you up on the harness suggestion, as well as the ignoring the behavior thing.  We'll give that a couple of weeks.
 

  How are your dogs when off-leash with other dogs? Only reactive on-leash?

 
Xerxes is fine with most dogs.  But he doesn't like puppies, nor does he tolerate any rude behavior.  But he used to be a great dog at the dog park.  I'm slowly reintroducing him to that environment.
 
Gaia is unpredictable in a dog park setting.  There are dogs she will play with very nicely-two in particular.  The rest she will play the chase game with and when they tire-PHs can go on forever-she gets in their face to instigate more play.  The dog will finally tell her off (growl, air snap) and then Gaia does the doggie ghetto version of "oh no you di-int!" and responds back in kind.  Also neither of them like boxers, and Gaia hates all brindled dogs-and she really hates mastiffs.  (She was previously owned by a Mastiff show-family that couldn't control her.) 

ORIGINAL: creilly

Thanks for the information... It sounds like I need to get back to the basics again... for now, walk where there aren't many dogs, try super fancy treats or meat as a distraction and just continue to walk and of course reward good behavior.  I'm also going to try the flower remedy. He does whine and my trainer (#3) told me that is was anxiety. It happened more when we first got him. Sometimes he'll whine when he sees other dogs, but most of the time, his ears go up, he freezes, then starts his performance and from there will begin to back into me because of fear.  I try to continue to reflect on the positives--he knows how to walk on  a leash now, he's trained to greet people in a positive way and not growl and he's better with stangers on the street. That being said, I had a set back this morning... he never became aggressive to other dogs while in the car and this morning, he did.  I'm obviously not doing something right. 

 
Setbacks do NOT mean that you're in error.  Setbacks are setbacks.  Don't blame and don't accept blame.  With reactive dogs, situational awareness is our most important tool.  The other dog could have come too close, sent a weird signal, or your pupper could have been resource guarding (the car is a resource-territory.) 
 
Oh and Ixa's: I think the recovery time being shortened is the best marker of progress we have so far.  The shorter that recovery time becomes is usually a marker of how affected by the incident our dogs are.

ORIGINAL: creilly
I'm also going to try the flower remedy.

How is the flower remedy used ... just before walks, or like a daily vitamin?

Gaia does the doggie ghetto version of "oh no you di-int!"

haaahahaaaha!